Ibn Warraq on Imam Rauf

[Pardalis]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/07/AR2007090702050.htmlPlease tell us, Pardalis (and be specific), how each these statements differs from the others.

Wow, you're comparing Rauf to those Beck and O'Reilly turds? That doesn't make Rauf look good.

 

[DC]

Rauf says he basically agrees with OBL's grievances. It's like he said "I don't agree with the attacks, even though they were justified."

It's doublespeak.

where did he say they are justified?

 

[marksman]

Yes it does boil my blood. When it comes to America, people can't seem to just see 9/11 for what it is, a vicious attack by evil people. They always have to add "but America had it coming", which downplays the part where 3,000 innocent people got butchered by religious madmen.

He didn't downplay it and he didn't say "America had it coming". In fact he said America didn't have it coming!!

Pardalis, you need to step back. Your arguments are unfounded. Your reading of his statements is -- to say the least -- askew. He didn't apologize for bin Laden in any fashion.

 

[Cleon]

When I first heard the comments by Rauf on what would occur if the building of that mosque was prohibited, I could only think of the Mafia business men selling "protection" to shop owners..

Then try again, only paying attention to what he actually said this time.

This whole meme - that Rauf's statements were a "veiled threat" - is so obviously a deliberate distortion of his comments that I find it difficult to believe that anyone actually believes it.

 

[Pardalis]

He didn't downplay it and he didn't say "America had it coming". In fact he said America didn't have it coming!!

He said OBL was made in America. How do you interpret this?

 

[A'isha]

Wow, you're comparing Rauf to those Beck and O'Reilly turds? That doesn't make Rauf look good.

So, you think Beck, O'Reilly, and the two chairs of the 9/11 Commission think ir's "OK to criticize America in any way shape or form, even attack it, because America is Evil and any criticism of America is by default acceptable, and warranted, even if it's done by a murderous lunatic," using "a double language and apologizing for a murderous lunatic's actions"?

Yes or no?

 

[GreNME]

Wow, you're comparing Rauf to those Beck and O'Reilly turds? That doesn't make Rauf look good.

And Thom Keane and Lee Hamilton.

Let us know when your arguments join reality with the rest of us.

 

[Cleon]

Wow, you're comparing Rauf to those Beck and O'Reilly turds? That doesn't make Rauf look good.

Way to dodge the question. Maybe it'll magically go away now.

 

[Praktik]

He said OBL was made in America. How do you interpret this?

It's pretty clear that was a reference to American support for the mujahideen against the Soviets.

How do you interpret it?

 

[Praktik]

And Thom Keane and Lee Hamilton.

Let us know when your arguments join reality with the rest of us.

Way to dodge the question. Maybe it'll magically go away now.

Oh please. When will you guys realize you're justifying the actions of EVIL??

 

[Pardalis]

So, you think Beck, O'Reilly, and the two chairs of the 9/11 Commission think ir's "OK to criticize America in any way shape or form, even attack it, because America is Evil and any criticism of America is by default acceptable, and warranted, even if it's done by a murderous lunatic," using "a double language and apologizing for a murderous lunatic's actions"?

Yes or no?

And Thom Keane and Lee Hamilton.

Let us know when your arguments join reality with the rest of us.

The Lee Hamilton quote is part of a much larger document that is much more complex and nuanced than this one snippet.

Beck and O'Reilly are dolts. I don't care about anything they say.

 

[Pardalis]

It's pretty clear that was a reference to American support for the mujahideen against the Soviets.

Nobody made OBL, he made himself, he brainwashed himself into Wahhabism on his own, and his insane laundry list of grievances is his own making.

Evil can exist outside the US you know. It doesn't always need a CIA agent behind it pulling the strings.

 

[A'isha]

The Lee Hamilton quote is part of a much larger document that is much more complex and nuanced than this one snippet.

Beck and O'Reilly are dolts. I don't care about anything they say.

You realize you're acting the same way when I press you on this as Thunder acted when I pressed him on the fatwa issue, don't you?

 

[Pardalis]

You realize you're acting the same way when I press you on this as Thunder acted when I pressed him on the fatwa issue, don't you?

You took one snippet out of the 9/11 Commission and I'm supposed to agree this is exactly what Rauf said in the interview?

 

[Praktik]

He can build his community center, there's no law against it, but his double language and implied support for OBL's "cause" shows he's not that much of a moderate.

Ok. So he's not a moderate. So what?

I am also left thinking: if Rauf is not a moderate, then where are the real moderates? Im thinking about his whole interview on Larry King now, everything I've read thats been posted from his books and interviews - and given his whole approach he really does seem pretty moderate to me!

So if Rauf is an extremist radical - don't we need a new word for Osama or Zarqawi?

It's like calling Arlen Spector a hard-core conservative - what do I call Tom Delay then? A hardest-of-hard-core conservative??

 

[GreNME]

The Lee Hamilton quote is part of a much larger document that is much more complex and nuanced than this one snippet.

Right, and there's no possibility that Rauf's opinion might also be much more complex and nuanced than the snippets being used against him?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in your excuse here?

 

[Praktik]

Evil can exist outside the US you know. It doesn't always need a CIA agent behind it pulling the strings.

Oh right, I forgot that I'm a cookie-cutter embodiment of your pet peeves with people who don't line-up with your views on American foreign policy. So that means I must think that the Source of All Evil is Washington DC, right?

Thanks for showing me the light Pardalis, cause that was a frighteningly accurate representation of my true beliefs. Sometimes when I see shots of the White House, I see columns of hellfire rising from the dome!

 

[Pardalis]

I like you Praktik, you're funny.

Maybe I am a bit ranting at the moment. Maybe in a couple hours I'll have cooled down.

 

[Praktik]

I like you Praktik, you're funny.

Maybe I am a bit ranting at the moment. Maybe in a couple hours I'll have cooled down.

hehe - humour! It brings us together!

 

[A'isha]

You took one snippet out of the 9/11 Commission and I'm supposed to agree this is exactly what Rauf said in the interview?

It's not out of the Commission. It's a Washington Post article that the Chair and Co-Chair wrote. And they say anger and extremism in the Muslim world that is due to American foreign policy choices. If you disagree, please explain, using specifics, why you think that's not the case.

Whether you think O'Reilly and Beck are dolts and turds or not is completely irrelevant. Beck's statement was virtually world-for-word what Rauf said, and O'Reilly explicitly said that Rauf's position was not radical in the least.

You think Rauf's words mean it's "OK to criticize America in any way shape or form, even attack it, because America is Evil and any criticism of America is by default acceptable, and warranted, even if it's done by a murderous lunatic," using "a double language and apologizing for a murderous lunatic's actions". Do you think the same of Beck and O'Reilly for what they said?

Yes, or no?