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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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A quick question:

If I happen to be in Perugia, and I amble over to look at the girls' cottage, and I discover that the front door is ajar, would it be OK for me to step inside and take a series of photographs of the kitchen/dining area of the cottage, as well as numerous close-up photos of the door lock as it looks today? Further, would it be OK if I then proudly post these photos on a publicly-accessible website? Would I get almost universally applauded by other people for this "audacious" behaviour? Or would that in fact be trespassing on private property and an invasion of privacy? And, just hypothetically, would the people who ran the website where I posted these photos be chiefly concerned about how people on another website might react, or should they be actually more concerned whether they or I were committing criminal acts? I wonder.....
Hi LondonJohn,
I was just reading on another website, which I do not need to mention, where a "crimebuff tourist" did exactly what you just wrote of!
And I was just thinking that if I had done what someone named "thoughtful" had, I would have probably been arrested right there and then, due to my looks, and my actions!

And then I got to thinking about privacy issues.
I wondered how somebody could feel that it is OK to take photo's of the inside of an unknown persons residence, just because a crime had previously happened there?
And then this "tourist" somehow felt it ok to post these photographs on a public forum for others to view?

As I was thinking of this, I entered JREF to read more recent debate of the critical and skeptical thinking that goes on here regarding the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher, and low and behold you too LondonJohn seem to have wondered about some of these sames thoughts I just had!

I feel that anyone doing this is definately invading someone else's privacy and that is disrespectful of them to do so, to put it very mildly and in JREF publicly allowed verbiage!
Hmmm...
RWVBWL
 
Sophistry - demand I prove a negative.

It is you that is claiming bleach was on the property. Therefore, it is you that has the requirement to provide evidence that it was.

Plus, you are still ignoring my points. Where is this magic bathroom bleach that does not exist in the bathroom but only comes into existence when it comes off of her feet and only off of hers and Raffaele's feet alone?

Where is the evidence from the defence that there was bleach on the property?

What about Laura and Filomena, are we calling them liars again?

And yes, the Massei Report does say there was cleaning.

Maybe somebody spilled some wine. The issue is that those bloody footprints tested negative for blood. That is a fact. I am trying to find a reasonable alternative to blood that would cause a luminol reaction. Your focus on turnip juice is not the only alternative it seems. However, if you want to continue the turnip juice theory, go right ahead.

As far as my asking you to back your claims with cites, I can see that you either do not have cites or do not wish to provide them.
 
Once I get a-hold of one of those home luminol testing kits I'm going to do some experiments with red wine. Who knows, I may even get around to using the luminol testing kit too. Glowy.
 
I suggest you read the Massei Report again. Sticking your fingers in your ears and singing 'lalalala' will only get you so far for so long.

You provided exactly zero evidence of a clean-up and no amount of waving your holy book in the air will conjure that fact away. I suggest you open your Massei report instead of thumping it and cite us some evidence from it.
 
Once I get a-hold of one of those home luminol testing kits I'm going to do some experiments with red wine. Who knows, I may even get around to using the luminol testing kit too. Glowy.

Wasn't there a mention of Meredith having a mushroom and a glass of should I say it ....... wine?
 
This is something that only happens in cheap police dramas. It doesn't happen in real life.
No, i understand that in your world criminals fess up the moment they come into contact with police. It must be a blessing to live in Utopia.

See below. There had been no investigation, so they had no facts. If there had been an investigation, then there would be details established at this period which would be part of the prosecution case. Felici's statements about knowing what was correct or incorrect, are straightforward lies. Of course, their "facts that we knew to be true" included that Patrick Lumumba was the murderer, and this soon had to be abandoned.
What were the investigators interviewing all those people besides Amanda and Raffaele for, if there was no investigation? Why were they visiting the cottage where Meredith was murdered if not for an investigation? Just passing time?

What can't be denied is that the Felici had decided in advance what statement would come out of the session with Amanda.
Of course it can be denied because till date you haven't presented any evidence to support your allegations.

It won't prevent anyone from believing it; only from saying it. As for your reasons for what you believe: that's something I can only guess at.
It wouldn't prevent me from saying it either.


What evidence do you expect her to have? Are you seriously saying that someone is not entitled to give their side of a story without the threat of a six-year jail sentence?
Certainly someone is entitled to give their side of the story. But be ready to have evidence for the claims made. Or in Amanda's case, at least be able to identify the woman who allegedly hit her on the head. That would have been a start at least.

The police have no independent evidence that they did not hit her, other than their own uncorroborated denials; and we know that this police force, as a corporate body, tells lies. Unlike Amanda, they could be expected to provide the recorded evidence to show what happened or didn't happen, but for whatever reason they either didn't record it or are withholding the recordings.
Uhm... i do believe that the translator who was present during the interview/interrogation was not part of the Perugian police force. There for his/her word can be considered independent confirmation of the events that took place.

:boggled: Whatever the difference, the significance of it in this context is thoroughly obscure. It seems you are OK with the state of affairs that police can arrange things so that they can behave however they like in this situation, and will use their powers of prosecution to suppress any criticism.
And it seems that you are okay that anyone can just accuse officers of inappropriate behavior, without any evidence to back up the accusations, and expect that them to get away with that without consequences, even if the subsequent investigation has not revealed any wrong doing by the police officers involved.

What do you think they were doing? As far as I can gather, the "investigation" in the first days consisted entirely of harrassing Amanda and Raffaele (over 40 hours of "interviews" with Amanda alone between midday on 2 Nov and daybreak on 6 Nov), gathering salacious details to leak to the press, and manipulating them into incriminating each other.
I think the police officers were doing their job, and investigating a murder. Amanda and Raffaele, as people who had been spending time in the cottage before the body of Meredith was discovered were quite naturally the greatest persons of interest during the early days. Add dissimilar and shifting alibis for the night the murder took place and the pair puts themselves firmly in the spotlight.


Breathtaking. Have you any experience of being arrested and interrogated? Did it happen to you at the age of 20?
Not arrested but interrogated/interviewed when I was 19. Anything else you would like to know?
 
I cant believe the level of snark and downright immaturity some posters on here have. No one is going to see your side of things when you act that way, why not intelligently and politely argue your side? If things are really the way you say there are, people might come around?

The post that Supernaut was responding to was one of the most patronizing remarks I have seen on here yet. It helps to read things in context. Welcome to the board, Solange.
 
You forgot they also have the court of law, including real experts, real judges, and real jurors, who were AT the trial as opposed to getting all their info off the interwebs. In the end, who will decide Amanda and Raffaele's fate? Steve Moore? Candace Dempsey? Be reasonable, and stop being so patronizing. I cant believe the level of snark and downright immaturity some posters on here have. No one is going to see your side of things when you act that way, why not intelligently and politely argue your side? If things are really the way you say there are, people might come around?



Nope. Did it happen to YOU? So who's the expert? Neither of you

Is this your first post? Welcome. Nice start, BTW.
 
Wisdom of Massei

You forgot they also have the court of law, including real experts, real judges, and real jurors, who were AT the trial as opposed to getting all their info off the interwebs. In the end, who will decide Amanda and Raffaele's fate? Steve Moore? Candace Dempsey? Be reasonable, and stop being so patronizing. I cant believe the level of snark and downright immaturity some posters on here have. No one is going to see your side of things when you act that way, why not intelligently and politely argue your side? If things are really the way you say there are, people might come around?



Nope. Did it happen to YOU? So who's the expert? Neither of you

Solange305,

Welcome; I look forward to discussing the case with you. I hope your experiences here are better than mine at another board. Someone called me a pompous a**, and when I pointed out that this was a breach of forum rules, the moderators criticized me, not the person hurling this high school insult. My point is that this forum is better than some in my experience.

I do have several problems with your argument, however. Much of the forensic information was not disclosed to the defense, especially the electronic data files, as I have very recently discussed. One purpose of discovery is to level the playing field between the prosecution's expert witnesses and the defense's. The prosecution failed utterly in its obligation.

In addition, we have seen with our own eyes that Stefanoni did not believe in changing gloves. We have heard from her own lips "theories" of DNA contamination that do not square with real-world examples.

The court might have ameliorated some of the damage done by appointing independent experts to review the forensics. It did not; instead, Massei states things such as semen stains cannot be dated; therefore, a putative semen stain should not be tested further. Perhaps if he had appointed independent experts, he would not state things that the Raffaele's appeal indicates are at odds with fundamental principles of DNA profiling.
 
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The post that Supernaut was responding to was one of the most patronizing remarks I have seen on here yet. It helps to read things in context. Welcome to the board, Solange.

Thank you, I will go back and check the context. However, two wrongs dont always make a right.... Its frustrating seeing so much arguing and nothing ever gets settled... I know it's probably unavoidable, but still frustrating...
 
Thank you, I will go back and check the context. However, two wrongs dont always make a right.... Its frustrating seeing so much arguing and nothing ever gets settled... I know it's probably unavoidable, but still frustrating...

I agree.
 
Is this your first post? Welcome. Nice start, BTW.

Yes. Sorry for my first post being so rude, its just I've felt it's kind of pointless to discuss things that no matter how much they get discussed, no conclusion can ever be drawn. I let my anger get the best of me, and posted when perhaps I shouldn't have. I hope the appeals process will shed more light on this back and forth that seems to have been going on for so long, it is hard to tell what is true and what is not anymore...
 
Yes. Sorry for my first post being so rude, its just I've felt it's kind of pointless to discuss things that no matter how much they get discussed, no conclusion can ever be drawn. I let my anger get the best of me, and posted when perhaps I shouldn't have. I hope the appeals process will shed more light on this back and forth that seems to have been going on for so long, it is hard to tell what is true and what is not anymore...

We have some common ground in that regard. I don't think the discussion today was pointless. Some young lady doing a science fair experiment gave me reason to look for common products that cause a positive Luminol reaction. Today I found out Oxi-clean, vinegar, and red wine as well as a lot of tub, shower, and toilet and sink cleaners can cause positive Luminol reactions. Not just turnip juice, or blood for that matter.
 
Wasn't there a mention of Meredith having a mushroom and a glass of should I say it ....... wine?
Hi RoseMontague,
When I just read your posting, I wondered if you would elaborate on it.
Do you think it mushroom or was it desert, IIRC, apple crumble, that Miss Kercher had still not digested at the time of her murder.

I found it interesting that you mention wine, for I recall reading that Miss Kercher and her British gal pals did not drink that evening, but yet according to what I had read on Perugia Shock, Miss Kercher was found with a blood alcohol count of 0.43 grams/liter.
Frank Sfarzo writes that is similiar to having half a glass of wine or one glass of beer.
Did she drink some wine before she died that night?

Hmmm...
RWVBWL
 
Hi RoseMontague,
When I just read your posting, I wondered if you would elaborate on it.
Do you think it mushroom or was it desert, IIRC, apple crumble, that Miss Kercher had still not digested at the time of her murder.

I found it interesting that you mention wine, for I recall reading that Miss Kercher and her British gal pals did not drink that evening, but yet according to what I had read on Perugia Shock, Miss Kercher was found with a blood alcohol count of 0.43 grams/liter.
Frank Sfarzo writes that is similiar to having half a glass of wine or one glass of beer.
Did she drink some wine before she died that night?

Hmmm...
RWVBWL

My opinion is that she was attacked almost immediately when she got home. The tiny bit of alcohol in her system was probably due to partying until 4am that morning. I mentioned the wine because Massei's mention of it means it was probably in the flat thus showing that perhaps there was something else in the house that could cause a Luminol reaction other than fruit juice.

My other point is that even if Laura and Filomena testified to the fact that they did not use bleach, some of these things that contain bleach are not generally known and some of the things that don't contain bleach but still cause a positive luminol reaction are not commonly known either. I would love to see that inventory list and research every product listed, if such a list exists, which I have been unable to find to this point.
 
My opinion is that she was attacked almost immediately when she got home. The tiny bit of alcohol in her system was probably due to partying until 4am that morning. I mentioned the wine because Massei's mention of it means it was probably in the flat thus showing that perhaps there was something else in the house that could cause a Luminol reaction other than fruit juice.

My other point is that even if Laura and Filomena testified to the fact that they did not use bleach, some of these things that contain bleach are not generally known and some of the things that don't contain bleach but still cause a positive luminol reaction are not commonly known either. I would love to see that inventory list and research every product listed, if such a list exists, which I have been unable to find to this point.

It's possible that the autopsy blood alcohol reading was measuring residual alcohol in Meredith's blood from the previous night's partying. However, for this to be the case (IIRC), it would imply that Meredith's blood alcohol at around 4.30am on the early morning of the 1st was around 2.6g/l, which is exceedingly high (anything over around 3g/l is considered potentially lethal). It could have been that Meredith was absolutely steaming drunk the previous night - did the police ever gather evidence about the Halloween parties and Meredith's state of intoxication throughout the night?
 
My opinion is that she was attacked almost immediately when she got home. The tiny bit of alcohol in her system was probably due to partying until 4am that morning. I mentioned the wine because Massei's mention of it means it was probably in the flat thus showing that perhaps there was something else in the house that could cause a Luminol reaction other than fruit juice.

My other point is that even if Laura and Filomena testified to the fact that they did not use bleach, some of these things that contain bleach are not generally known and some of the things that don't contain bleach but still cause a positive luminol reaction are not commonly known either. I would love to see that inventory list and research every product listed, if such a list exists, which I have been unable to find to this point.

While I am not an expert on cleaning products nor cleaning (as many will testify to who know me) it is usually the case with products containing bleach that there is some mention (warning) on the product to inform the user of such. This is mainly so the user would not mix the product (containing bleach) with ammonia or certain acids which would not be a good thing.

Also, many cleaning products do not contain bleach due to environmental issues - trying to accommodate green practices and such. And many people do not like cleaning products containing bleach if they have small children or pets or respiratory problems.

As to the motivations I have not found a list of the cleaning products used in the girls' flat. Massei did address why he felt the area was not cleaned with a bleach product - there was no smell (like the smell of bleach reported at Raffaele's flat) and if there had been widespread cleaning (and Massei does believe parts of the flat were cleaned) with a bleach product there would have been more traces of Luminol-positive findings (pages 283-284).
 
You provided exactly zero evidence of a clean-up and no amount of waving your holy book in the air will conjure that fact away. I suggest you open your Massei report instead of thumping it and cite us some evidence from it.
I agree. How can we have a discussion unless the source that's being referred to is actually quoted? Just saying "It's there and that's that" leads to a "was not/was too" type discussion, whereas if something is sourced and quoted we can discuss how valid or otherwise the argument might be. I think the standard of discussion on the thread for quite a while now has been way higher than the kind of point scoring slanging match that was quite common at one point. It'd be a shame if it degenerated again.
 
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