Dr David Kelly's body 'had obviously been moved'

[Darat]

OK, moving on, there is one thing about the case that has always bothered me but is very rarely mentioned. David Kelly was at the centre of one of the biggest international political and intelligence **** storms we've seen for years. So wouldn't he had been under surveillance on the day he died? It's unthinkable that he wouldn't have been bugged at the very least, if not under live surveillance. This man knew things and he was talking. This might tie in with 2 interesting other mysteries in this case.

...snip...

That's an argument from personal incredulity - to move it beyond that you would need to demonstrate that such activities are in fact so much the norm that the lack of such surveillance in a case like this would indicate something outside the norm was occurring. (I am not disputing that the intelligence services do bug people and so on.)

 

[Darat]

If by flimsy, you mean the unequival statement of the personal who found him which states the body was in a different position than it was desribed by later witnesses? (and not just the paramedic, if you look at hutton other witnesses describe the body laying flat next to the tree too)

Of course its not cast iron evidence, but in lift of all the other doubts their really needs to be a proper inquest to clear these things up.

Why would an inquest clear this up?

 

[Soily]

Why would an inquest clear this up?

The key players would be examined about their actions under oath. The crime scene photos and other evidence not shown to hutton would be scrutinized. And most importantly, Kelly would be afforded what everyone else in this country is afforded, a verdict on how he died that is subject to proper legal levels of proof, rather than the politically motivated stitch up he actually got.

 

[Soily]

That's an argument from personal incredulity - to move it beyond that you would need to demonstrate that such activities are in fact so much the norm that the lack of such surveillance in a case like this would indicate something outside the norm was occurring. (I am not disputing that the intelligence services do bug people and so on.)

Yes it's speculation. But cast your mind back to 2003, this was an absolutely huge story with international significance. Here was a man that could bring down governments and it seemed he was talking. Do you think he would have been under survelleince?

 

[manxman]

You may just get one aswell with Ken Clarke making positive noises about one.

 

[Rolfe]

I think an inquest would be helpful in clarifying the cause of death.

Rolfe.

 

[Soily]

I think an inquest would be helpful in clarifying the cause of death.

Rolfe.

And a lot of other things you'd hope. Even if Kelly did die as originally described there are still plenty of questions about the behaviour of the authorities, hutton, the police.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I think an inquest should be carried out because an inquest should have been carried out in the first place and not replaced by the Hutton Inquiry.

 

[manxman]

He was someone who thought Saddam Hussain had WMD and he leaked information to a journalist, he subsequently killed himself after his leaking was revealed.

He was someone who thought the exact opposite and leaked the exact opposite to gilligan.

No-ones mentioned the knife he used to allegedly cut his wrist with.
The fact it had no finger prints on it, whats kelly supposed to have done,
Slashed his wrist then cleaned the knife while he bled out.
Plus he was left handed, and cut his left wrist, with a right hand and arm that many of the people who knew him allege he did not have the strength in to do anything like that.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...d-an-inquiry-into-death-of-dr-kelly-1.1048237


A Q for Rolfe

In your opinion would Dr Kelly of known how to commit suicide in a much more efficient way, all seems very amateurish to me for a Dr, even a dr with only a knife.

 

[Sledge]

The recovery position. I've done a few one-day first aid courses over the last ten years. The recovery position has always been taught as a basic principle of first aid. Never has "slumped against a tree" been mentioned as an acceptable recovery position.

 

[Soily]

He was someone who thought the exact opposite and leaked the exact opposite to gilligan.

No-ones mentioned the knife he used to allegedly cut his wrist with.
The fact it had no finger prints on it, whats kelly supposed to have done,
Slashed his wrist then cleaned the knife while he bled out.
Plus he was left handed, and cut his left wrist, with a right hand and arm that many of the people who knew him allege he did not have the strength in to do anything like that.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...d-an-inquiry-into-death-of-dr-kelly-1.1048237


A Q for Rolfe

In your opinion would Dr Kelly of known how to commit suicide in a much more efficient way, all seems very amateurish to me for a Dr, even a dr with only a knife.

In my opinion, and this is all supposition, it seems unlikely that an educated, worldy scientist would choose such a clumsy and amaterish method of suicide, one he must have known had a low probability of success. Also, he is meant to have slashed the ulnar artery (on the little finger side of the wrist) on his left wrist with his right hand, but if you mime this out yourself it's a really unnatural cut to make. On top of this, there was no evidence he'd ever taken an even remotely fatal dose of the painkiller, beyond the empty blister packs. So here's a man whose an expert in bio warfare and the science of death, choosing two stupid and low probability of success suicide options at the same time.

Also Manx, as far as I remember, Kelly did think saddam had WMD, but that his threat was very limited. He certainly wasn't happy about the exxeragted claims that were been made about the scale of his threat.

 

[Horatius]

Plus he was left handed, and cut his left wrist, with a right hand and arm that many of the people who knew him allege he did not have the strength in to do anything like that.

Having done a bit of cutting with knives and swords in my time, it's my experience that most people seriously overestimate how hard it is to cut things.

Also, he is meant to have slashed the ulnar artery (on the little finger side of the wrist) on his left wrist with his right hand, but if you mime this out yourself it's a really unnatural cut to make.

Unless he held the edge upwards, and pressed down on the knife with his wrist. That would make this cut much easier.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Plus he had a doctorate in microbiology - I don't know why that would make him any more an expert in committing suicide than you (I would say "you or I" but I've worked in suicide research, so I probably know more than he did).

 

[Soily]

Plus he had a doctorate in microbiology - I don't know why that would make him any more an expert in committing suicide than you (I would say "you or I" but I've worked in suicide research, so I probably know more than he did).

I don't think it's a matter of being an expert in suicide, it's just something most well informed adults are aware of, that cutting your wrists usually doesn't result in death. Kelly must surely have known this, so why would he choose a messy, painful form of suicide with a low probability of success?

 

[Belgian thought]

Rolfe, here is a letter to the telegraph from a doctor which sums up my feelings on the unlikeliness of the co-proximal been the culprit:

Sir

If David Kelly (Letters, August 23) did not die from ulnar artery blood loss, then can we be sure that death was even due to cardio-respiratory depression after ingesting co-proxamol?

The drug contains dextropropoxyphene (Dp) and paracetemol. Paracetemol overdose can cause death but only in excess of three days after ingestion. Dp can cause death within one hour but usually within a mean of five hours.

As a retired anaesthetist with training in pharmacology, I noted that the stomach was empty of capsules, which indicates the Dp was totally absorbed. But the fact that the blood level of Dp was so low as to be below that necessary for cardio-respiratory depression suggests that not many tablets ever arrived in the stomach. An empty blister pack is not proof of ingestion.

Wrting as a citizen of this country, I feel that there are enough untidy ends in this sad saga to justify a coroner's inquest in which scene-of-crime officers and specialists in pharmacokinetics, forensic pathology, toxicology and vascular surgery can explain inconsistencies.

Dr David Rutter
Romsey, Hampshire



I believe the only evidence they ever presented that he'd ingested that many tablets was the empty blister packs, as if you only ever take tablets from pristine new blister packs, then throw the rest away.

Could Dr David Kelly not have simply broken the capsules and dissolved the co-proxamol, thus ensuring quicker absorbtion, hence a stomach empty of capsules?

 

[Soily]

Could Dr David Kelly not have simply broken the capsules and dissolved the co-proxamol, thus ensuring quicker absorbtion, hence a stomach empty of capsules?

It would be interesting to know how much water was left in the bottle, its not specified at hutton. But obviously how much water he used has a baring on how many tablets he could have swallowed. But as I said before, there was no evidence he ever swallowed all the tablets missing from the blister packs.

 

[Rolfe]

They're not very soluble and not that easy to crush. You could crush a couple between two spoons I suppose, but for any serious number a mortar and pestle would come in quite handy.

Rolfe.

 

[Belgian thought]

It would be interesting to know how much water was left in the bottle, its not specified at hutton. But obviously how much water he used has a baring on how many tablets he could have swallowed. But as I said before, there was no evidence he ever swallowed all the tablets missing from the blister packs.

Not tablets, but capsules. A minor point, but perhaps an important one.

 

[manxman]

Nice spot BT.

 

[Sledge]

I don't think it's a matter of being an expert in suicide, it's just something most well informed adults are aware of, that cutting your wrists usually doesn't result in death. Kelly must surely have known this, so why would he choose a messy, painful form of suicide with a low probability of success?

Citation needed.