Burn a Quran day

PZ Myers' take

So I'm looking at this recent episode with Terry Jones — a fellow I don't like at all, and I think he's a fanatical goofball — and I see that the serious problem here isn't Jones at all…it's all the lunatics who are insisting that burning the Koran is a major international catastrophe.

It's just a frackin' book, people.
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Trolls like this are probably going to start taking a front seat in American political discourse.. We're letting them get their foot in the door here, the result isn't hard to guess. The political equivalent of biting the head off a bat will now make you a star.
 
Emperor_Gestahl said:
Trolls like this are probably going to start taking a front seat in American political discourse.. We're letting them get their foot in the door here, the result isn't hard to guess. The political equivalent of biting the head off a bat will now make you a star.
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News is media, media is entertainment, entertainment is a commodity, and drama sells. Welcome to the American political landscape, where every fringe nutbar is guaranteed a national soapbox to froth from. The stupider the better.
 
oh dear, that crazy nutjob is now all over the media. also here.

in another video he talks about bringing back Germany to Jesus.

wasn't it Jesus that teached the nonsense of loving your enemy?

Religions are so extremely laughable.

stupid whorshipping of non existing creatuers and not following their own rules.
 
Drawing Mohammad to demonstrate free speech is one thing. Burning a Quran just to be a dick is another thing altogether.

Best thing about this is that the islamic extremists will probably forget about the danish cartoons...

Good luck with the death threats and attacks on your life, Mr. Jones.
 
Olowkow said:
I guess it's my reading comprehension again acting up, but I have no earthly idea what that means.
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Free speech is a simple enough concept, but sometimes people get confused. However, if you don't think that asking someone to not burn a Koran is breaching his rights to free speech, then you think 9/11 is an inside job. Or something like that.
 
Puppycow said:
PZ Myers' take
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Myers has the same attitude as he had previously. This thing has no value to me, therefore it has no value. The only thing that matters is the value that I put on it. People who think differently to me are wrong.

So he's happy to brush aside the consequences of the book burning (one dead so far, more to come - and that's before any Korans have been burned). He's also deliberately trying to characterise the people who are pointing out the consequences as being in some way anti free speech - letting the side down. He's claiming that he's being forced to show respect to things he doesn't respect. That's not true. He, and the crazy Christian, had to go out of their way to find objects sacred to someone else to show their contempt for those people. Korans and wafers weren't being paraded in the street.

It might be "just a book" to Myers. It's clearly not to other people. Some people value a tattered old paperback because it's the only thing they have belonging to their grandfather. Maybe it has a signature from a famous writer. In any case, no person's valuation is more valid than anyone else's.

The fact that Myers is an atheist who despises all religious belief equally, while the pastor is a Christian who just hates Islam, doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of exactly the same arrogance and lack of empathy to people who happen to think differently to them.
 
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westprog said:
Myers has the same attitude as he had previously. This thing has no value to me, therefore it has no value. The only thing that matters is the value that I put on it. People who think differently to me are wrong.

So he's happy to brush aside the consequences of the book burning (one dead so far, more to come - and that's before any Korans have been burned). He's also deliberately trying to characterise the people who are pointing out the consequences as being in some way anti free speech - letting the side down. He's claiming that he's being forced to show respect to things he doesn't respect. That's not true. He, and the crazy Christian, had to go out of their way to find objects sacred to someone else to show their contempt for those people. Korans and wafers weren't being paraded in the street.

It might be "just a book" to Myers. It's clearly not to other people. Some people value a tattered old paperback because it's the only thing they have belonging to their grandfather. Maybe it has a signature from a famous writer. In any case, no person's valuation is more valid than anyone else's.

The fact that Myers is an atheist who despises all religious belief equally, while the pastor is a Christian who just hates Islam, doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of exactly the same arrogance and lack of empathy to people who happen to think differently to them.
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I have not read this entire thread, but I have followed the incident and read PZ Myers' blog, and you are wrong.

Myers' take is similar or perhaps identical to mine, and his blog is fairly clear on it:

Jones is being an insensitive boob. His insensitive boobery is not wrong on the same level as the Islamic extremist threats in response are wrong. Nor is his boobery wrong on the same level as the Western condemnations of his boobery insofar as those condemnations do not condemn the extremism more.
 
I too an with PZ on this one. If his little stunt was treated merely as the childish, attention-whoring outburst that it is, then there would be no risk of it endangering US troops in the Middle East, because no one there would even have heard about it.

In a sane world, "Idiot hick from Florida acts like idiot hick from Florida" would not be an international headline.
 
Garrette said:
I have not read this entire thread, but I have followed the incident and read PZ Myers' blog, and you are wrong.

Myers' take is similar or perhaps identical to mine, and his blog is fairly clear on it:

Jones is being an insensitive boob. His insensitive boobery is not wrong on the same level as the Islamic extremist threats in response are wrong. Nor is his boobery wrong on the same level as the Western condemnations of his boobery insofar as those condemnations do not condemn the extremism more.
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I fail to see how Jones can be an insensitive boob and have Myers be sensitive. Jones is reacting to the death of three thousand people. Myers was reacting to a student being shoved. Both reactions are fairly disgusting - but at least Jones had something to get upset about. Myers had to force his indignation in order to get offensive.
 
Emperor_Gestahl said:
Trolls like this are probably going to start taking a front seat in American political discourse.. We're letting them get their foot in the door here, the result isn't hard to guess. The political equivalent of biting the head off a bat will now make you a star.
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I think interest in this sort of stunt will be self-limiting. How much outrage do Americans manage these days over flag burnings in Pakistan?

erlando said:
Drawing Mohammad to demonstrate free speech is one thing. Burning a Quran just to be a dick is another thing altogether.
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No, I think they're the same thing.

westprog said:
The fact that Myers is an atheist who despises all religious belief equally, while the pastor is a Christian who just hates Islam, doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of exactly the same arrogance and lack of empathy to people who happen to think differently to them.
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Yes, they're a small-scale version of the Taliban who blasted the Buddhist statues. The Taliban's act was different in kind as well as degree -- they were destroying one-of-a-kind cultural relics rather than mass-produced cultural relics -- but the motive in all cases is to show contempt.

westprog said:
So he's happy to brush aside the consequences of the book burning (one dead so far, more to come - and that's before any Korans have been burned).
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I think freedom of speech is important enough to endure consequences such as this. It sucks that supporting freedom of speech sometimes means letting asshats have a soapbox, but the asshats on the soapbox aren't the ones killing people. Much as I disapprove of the asshats' stunts, if people die, the responsibility for those deaths lies with the killers.
 
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Puppycow said:
Coverage of Koran Case Stirs Questions on Media Role



They're feeding the troll.
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This really is such a good point. Why did the media even give this guy the time of day? He leads a teeny tiny group of people who have (and I say this speaking as someone who lived in Gainesville, Fla for 5 years) zero influence in even the town the live in, nevermind on a broader scale.

It reminds me a bit of the South Park situation. This year, they depicted a bear who they said was Mohammed in a bear suit, the media made a story out of it, and it became a huge issue. Yet a few years ago they actually depicted Mohammed as Mohammed, and no one cared, because the only people who knew it even happened were people who watch South Park as opposed to the whole world.
 
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I love the idea that burning a Koran will incite the 'non-radical' muslims.

Someone who decides to kill people, because they burned a book, is a radical.

______________

Why are the conservative talk-show hosts against the reverend Jones burning the book?
Weren't they the same people who said "If you negotiate with terrorists, and give in to their threats, you encourage more threats." Won't the terrorists now say, We will kill people, if you don't let the IMAM build his mosque"?

Shouldn't they be defending Jones' freedom of speech as voraciously as they were defending the citizens speaking out against the mosque's freedom of speech?

I think Sean Hannity is completely hypocritical on this issue.
 
westprog said:
And barbecues? Suppose someone was having a barbecue in his back garden, and used torn up papers to light it? Would that cause a public announcement?
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Yep which is why it is forbidden to light barbecue with paper, and small lightly compacted briquette are sold for this.

Naturally they don't check your barbecue, but if an accident happen, they will fall like a 10 ton weight on you, and likely you would be found responsible directly.
 
Piscivore said:
I agree. To sum up:

Burning a koran = One has a right to, but it's a dick move.

Threatening to burn a koran unless the mosque is moved = Terrorism

Making people believe that a violent reprisals will follow burning of koran = Terrorism

Not burning koran because of fear of reprisals / not building mosque because of threats to burn koran = Spinelessness and letting the terrorists win.

Burning terrorists = Awesome.
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A very strong simplification, and an exageration, (I don't think the people warned of violent reprisal in intention to incite terror and not burn the koran, i think they warned that some idiot on which they have no control could do it). Still a nice summary.
 
The fact that Myers is an atheist who despises all religious belief equally, while the pastor is a Christian who just hates Islam, doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of exactly the same arrogance and lack of empathy to people who happen to think differently to them.
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I have empathy towards those who are insulted by this idiot's Koran burning, although I would advise them to ignore it (since reacting would just make the idiot satisfied). I would have empathy with them if they sent outraged letters to newspapers protesting this act or, for that matter, would have some empathy if they burned the bible in return (although this would certainly make them as low as the idiot pastor). But my empathy stops the moment people threaten to kill other people because of such an act.
 
Piscivore said:
I agree. To sum up:

Threatening to burn a koran unless the mosque is moved = Terrorism
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No. Threatening to kill someone unless the mosque is moved is terrorism. Threatening to burn the Koran unless the mosque is moved is just being a dick, a bit like the "threat" to open a bar next door. No disagreement with the rest of what you said.
 
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