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Holocaust deniers, explain this.

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Hmmm....no comment on the demonstration that the whole question of Jews with mallets breaking up bone fragments is plausible after all. What a surprise.

Here's a link to a much more scholarly treatment of the questions related to the mechanics of killing a million people and disposing of their bodies.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/
 
Sorry for the delay. I've been busy spanking the believers on other forums.

You do realize that after cremation, you don't end up with bones. You do end up with bone fragments. The calcium in the bones won't burn, but it will break into smaller pieces. You don't have intact skeletons, or even intact femurs, at the end of the process, and what you do have does not have the strength of bone. It's brittle and is easily broken into powder.

Bones are easier to break it up into small shards after being subjected to high heat but they're not easily ground into powder. But they don't necessarily need to be. Teeth, however, are difficult to destroy relative to the other bone tissue.

Heat will make bones and teeth more brittle but even in modern cremations and mechanical grinders teeth can be difficult to crush. An adult has 32 permanent teeth. If you assume very poor oral hygiene and say that each Auschwitz prisoner had only ten teeth, you've got to get rid of more than ten million teeth.


It's also mostly calcium compounds which are water soluble. Rivers are big. The powder will be carried downstream and dissipate over time. Yes, I assume that at the dumping place it would have been possible to find human residue at the end of the war, but why would you bother doing it?

You would want to do it so you can confirm that a crime has actually taken place. You would want to accurately assess the scale of the crime so you don't underestimate its enormity. Conversely, you dont' want to accuse the Germans of committing the greatest mass murder in history if that is not what they did. If all you're interested in doing is punishing your now vanquished foe then there's no need to really investigate. But then you run the risk of people in the future saying that there's no historical value to your findings.


Why? How many pounds of bone could one Jew process in an hour? I don't know, but, I'm picturing some powder that has about the same density as sand if it were to be completely ground up. I've carried thousands of pounds of sand in one day.

What do you mean by "carried?"

However, the carrying isn't the difficult part. It's the crushing. So, I'm imagining a very large box of fragments that I have to strike with a hammer. I don't have to grind them to fine sand, the way a funeral home would. I would just have to get them down to pieces that could be swept up and put in a dump truck.

I'll bet I could do 300 pounds in an hour.

300 pounds at six pounds per corpse is seventy five corpses. You could not grind the bones of seventy five corpses in an hour. Grinding just seventy five pelvises and 750 teeth in an hour wouldn't be possible.

You don't have to grind them to the consistency that you'd get from a modern funeral home but if you don't grind the entire skeleton into a fine powder, you're have no chance whatsoever of dissolving them in water. And if you aren't able to dissolve all the bones in the water, you have no chance of disposing of the bodies without a trace.

So to claim that the "ash" was dumped into the river and swept out to sea so as to leave no trace, you're going to need to pulverize the entire skeletal remains into a fine powder.

If you were using tempered steel mallets (and remember that you are actually using wooden mallets) you would have difficulty processing just the teeth of five corpses in an hour.

If you had different tools you could certainly process more corpses. But the story is wooden mallets on a concrete slab.


So, 4.5 million pounds, at 300 pounds per hour requires 15000 Jew-hours of labor. Twelve hour workdays, right? 1250 days. There are only 1095 days in three years. You'll need two Jews.

I don't need to do the calculations to show you that if you say you can process seventy five corpses in an hour and I say you can't possible process more than five, you and I are going to come up with significantly different figures.

I don't think you could do this job for twelve hours a day. But even at twelve hours a day without any food, water, or bathroom breaks, I would need more than two Jews to pulverize the skeletons.

Now, you might object to this because I've described a grueling pace, that has to be kept for twelve hours a day, every single day. That's not a realistic pace. No one could keep it up for very long. Fortunately, though, you can kill the people who are doing it and replace them with new workers every few days if necessary.

Yes, that would be a grueling pace. Go out into your garage and hit a piece of wood with a hammer at a steady pace for ONE hour and see how long you can keep it up. Knowing that you would be shot if you didn't keep up the pace would be a significant motivator but the human body can only perform a repetitive motion for a limited period of time before it gives out. Fear doesn't change that.

The Jews would slow down their pace to where it would be possible to continue swinging a hammer for twelve hours if they knew that is what they needed to do. But that would reduce the number of corpses that could be smashed in an hour.

If the Germans demanded an impossible pace and shot anybody who didn't keep it up, none of the workers would last the day. Every time a Jew was shot for under-performing, somebody would need to haul the dead body away and then go back to the Jew-pen to get another worker. This takes time that would cut into productivity.

Watching your coworkers being shot left and right for failure to maintain an impossible pace would force any Jew with a brain to realize the futility of trying. Some would carry on until they could not physically continue. Most would either be so traumatized that they wouldn't be able to do anything, and therefore be immediately shot or they would resist/revolt, and therefore be immediately shot.

You also need to consider the support personnel. You have the bone smashing Jews but somebody needs to bring the bones to the bone smashing area of the camp and somebody else needs to haul the powdered bones to the river. If you have the bone smashing Jews perform those tasks as well, that reduces the number of bones that each Jew can smash.



Also, I'm not sure that a "cracker" is a hammer. Could it be a press? Don't know. I'm assuming a mallet for the sake of argument.

Who called anything a "cracker?" The description of this activity that I recall referred to wooden mallets. A "cracker" in this context could be something like a nutcracker--a V shaped tool you use to crack open a nut. I've seen people open nuts with nutcrackers and with mallets so it's entirely possible that whoever told the bone crushing story referred to both tools. Either way, it's a story that depends on very simple hand tools being used to completely erase all the evidence of a HUGE quantity of human remains.
 
Who called anything a "cracker?" The description of this activity that I recall referred to wooden mallets. A "cracker" in this context could be something like a nutcracker--a V shaped tool you use to crack open a nut. I've seen people open nuts with nutcrackers and with mallets so it's entirely possible that whoever told the bone crushing story referred to both tools. Either way, it's a story that depends on very simple hand tools being used to completely erase all the evidence of a HUGE quantity of human remains.

My mistake. The word I was looking for was "crasher", not "cracker".

"After clearing of the pits the ashes were pulverized. This happened on a concrete slab where prisoners crushed the bone remnants with wooden crashers. These residues were brought with lorries to a secluded site and thrown into the Vistula (Weichsel) River."

I'm not sure what a "crasher" is, although mallet seems to be a reasonable assumption.

However, I disagree with your characterization. It wasn't necessary to completely erase all the evidence. At the time they were doing this, they thought they were going to win the war and they weren't worried about trials. All they had to do was conceal it sufficiently to prevent troubles that might cause unrest in the occupied territories' civilian populations, or in the ranks of their own military, some of whom had enough integrity to raise some objections to mass murder.

So, how long would it take one Jew to process one set of cremains? I don't know, but I won't take your word for it, either. Somehow, they managed. The paper I posted the link for has a lot of descriptions of how the murders were carried out, and the total capacity of the killing machinery at Auschwitz.

You are also making a common CT believer mistake. There was no need to dredge the Vistula River after the war. They had abundant evidence of what happened. However, CT theorists are very prone to saying that whatever stone was unturned would have disproven the official version of events, and the only possible reason that the final stone was unturned was that someone wanted to hide evidence of the truth. If only they had searched the Vistula, they could have shown that this story about lorries full of ash was codswallop.

No, really, that's not it. The Vistula wasn't dredged in a search for human remains because there was no need. There was plenty of evidence without it. If you could find a scientist who would assert that remains could still be found today, you could probably find support for a dredging/exhumation operation, if the cost was not too terribly high.

ETA:These people seem to think it's possible.

http://www.hdot.org/en/learning/myth-fact/incineration10

As do these.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar47.html

I found these following some links after googling "ashes in the vistula river".

There are a lot of people who seem to think it happened just as was reported.
 
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"Belzec" Robert Kuwalek in "Der Ort des Terrors", Band 8, Herausgegeben von Wolfgang Benz und Barbara Distel, page 356. (footnotes 104-109)

Is just one of the many reference works that reveals your attempts to manipulate this thread.

For whose benefit are you playing this game?
 
I'm not a holocaust denier, I've never really been able to understand how people would fail to believe it with all the pictures taken

Not just the film, photos and personal witnesses... the thing that really nails it (because as a nutter you could say that was all just some elaborate conspiracy, aka. moon landing) but all the documentation BY THE NAZIS is just too much to deny.
 
Based on accounts from surviving Sonderkommandos, I think that "crashers" were rollers.

It's not very Santa-like at all.
 
"Belzec" Robert Kuwalek in "Der Ort des Terrors", Band 8, Herausgegeben von Wolfgang Benz und Barbara Distel, page 356. (footnotes 104-109)

Is just one of the many reference works that reveals your attempts to manipulate this thread.

For whose benefit are you playing this game?

Der Fuhrer!
 
Dogzilla said:
You don't have to grind them to the consistency that you'd get from a modern funeral home but if you don't grind the entire skeleton into a fine powder, you're have no chance whatsoever of dissolving them in water. And if you aren't able to dissolve all the bones in the water, you have no chance of disposing of the bodies without a trace.

So to claim that the "ash" was dumped into the river and swept out to sea so as to leave no trace, you're going to need to pulverize the entire skeletal remains into a fine powder.
I highlighted some of the problems in the above for you.

  • On one hand you are claiming that these ashes disappeared "without a trace."
  • On the other you are claiming that no one looked for these ashes by dredging the Vistula.

Do you see the logical problem with the above position?​

Meadmaker puts it better than I.
However, I disagree with your characterization. It wasn't necessary to completely erase all the evidence. At the time they were doing this, they thought they were going to win the war and they weren't worried about trials. All they had to do was conceal it sufficiently to prevent troubles that might cause unrest in the occupied territories' civilian populations, or in the ranks of their own military, some of whom had enough integrity to raise some objections to mass murder.
 
My mistake. The word I was looking for was "crasher", not "cracker".

"After clearing of the pits the ashes were pulverized. This happened on a concrete slab where prisoners crushed the bone remnants with wooden crashers. These residues were brought with lorries to a secluded site and thrown into the Vistula (Weichsel) River."

I'm not sure what a "crasher" is, although mallet seems to be a reasonable assumption.

I don't know what a "crasher" is either. I have heard of hammers being used so it makes sense that a mallet is what they're talking about.

However, I disagree with your characterization. It wasn't necessary to completely erase all the evidence. At the time they were doing this, they thought they were going to win the war and they weren't worried about trials. All they had to do was conceal it sufficiently to prevent troubles that might cause unrest in the occupied territories' civilian populations, or in the ranks of their own military, some of whom had enough integrity to raise some objections to mass murder.

Maybe it wasn't necessary to erase all the evidence but that is what we're told they did. From your hdot source: Ya’akov Silberberg, a survivor of the incineration Sonderkommando, said: "We broke the bones and ground them up very, very fine and the Germans scattered the ashes in the Vistula River so that no traces would remain." The quotes from Srebnik and Hoess refer to the bone being crushed into a fine powder.

The mental state of the Germans, their desire to conceal their crimes from the locals or their own troops, and what they thought about their chances of winning the war, etc. don't matter. It is what is suppose to have happened that matters.


So, how long would it take one Jew to process one set of cremains? I don't know, but I won't take your word for it, either. Somehow, they managed. The paper I posted the link for has a lot of descriptions of how the murders were carried out, and the total capacity of the killing machinery at Auschwitz.

You are also making a common CT believer mistake. There was no need to dredge the Vistula River after the war. They had abundant evidence of what happened.

But they didn't have abundant evidence of what happened. Or, if they did have abundant evidence, they didn't have enough or the right type of evidence. The looked at pairs of shoes, or bags of hair, men's overcoats, or potential capacity of the crematorium. Nothing they looked at was a valid way of estimating death toll or method of execution.


However, CT theorists are very prone to saying that whatever stone was unturned would have disproven the official version of events, and the only possible reason that the final stone was unturned was that someone wanted to hide evidence of the truth. If only they had searched the Vistula, they could have shown that this story about lorries full of ash was codswallop.

It's not that the unturned stones might have disproven the official version of events because it is not possible to prove a negative. Deniers know it's not possible to prove a negative. We'll ask for further investigation because the evidence that is used to support the official version of events isn't conclusive. It very often isn't even valid.

I don't think the motive to avoid looking real evidence is the desire for "hiding evidence of the truth." More likely it's laziness and/or stupidity. Something along the lines of 'opening mass graves is kind of disgusting so let's just say bags of human hair are proof that people were murdered and since it's the Germans nobody is going to make a fuss over using invalid evidence.'


No, really, that's not it. The Vistula wasn't dredged in a search for human remains because there was no need. There was plenty of evidence without it. If you could find a scientist who would assert that remains could still be found today, you could probably find support for a dredging/exhumation operation, if the cost was not too terribly high.

Remains wouldn't be found because the bones were ground up to a consistency of flour and dumped into the river. There might have been evidence that could be detected with DNA analysis in 1945 but extremely unlikely today. I would say impossible to find today but I don't know that for sure.

I don't know why anybody would want to dredge the river today even if scientists thought it would be possible to find human remains. Supposedly you can go to Treblinka and Sobibor today and find human bone shards laying all over and just below the surface. On Youtube and other websites you'll find photos and video of tourists at these death camps showing the camera these little pieces of Jew's dead bodies. Nobody has ever asked that these camps be excavated. Nobody has asked that any attempt to identify individuals be made (which is possible using DNA technology)

Former Sondercommando have testified that when they were cleaning out the mass graves at Treblinka they left entire skeletons intact in the mass graves along with bottles stuffed with notes describing the killing operation.

Why would anybody care about what happened to a parent or grandparent's remains at Auschwitz if nobody cares about it at Sobibor or Belzec?


ETA:These people seem to think it's possible.

http://www.hdot.org/en/learning/myth-fact/incineration10

As do these.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar47.html

I found these following some links after googling "ashes in the vistula river".

I'm not surprised that HDOT and nizkor thinks it's possible. They're anti-deniers sites so that's what they do. I've read much of the material there and I (obviously) don't buy into it.

Just to pick on Lipstadt's site, the evidence there isn't any more in depth than that which you'd find elsewhere. Vague descriptions of burning bodies and dumping ashes supported by multiple eyewitness statements is OK for an overview. But the devil is in the details and there aren't any details. She also plays around with certain information when it doesn't fit the traditional narrative.

She says for example that the extermination area of Treblinka 85,000 square meters and could easily hold nine mass graves. The official story has been that the extermination area of the camp was roughly 200 x 250 meters and none of the maps she links to show more than five mass graves.

She says: "Once reduced to near dust the ashes could be reburied in the empty graves or placed in sacks for disposal outside the camp. Even so, it appears that the Germans were not able or stopped short of reducing all of the human remains to ash." Nobody has ever said anything about ashes being placed in sacks for disposal outside of the camp. The dead were all buried within the extermination area according to the story. She can't simply change the story when a part of it doesn't work.

Or "carefully studied Franz’s photographs and found two that show five probable ash heaps surrounded by members of the Sonderkommandos who are apparently crushing and sieving the ashes. Another photograph shows a horse and cart in the area of the probably ash piles, indicating that the crushing and sieving sites were some distance from the incineration sites. These photographs also show the general size of the death camp area, which was more extensive than the Holocaust deniers maintain."

Probable? Apparently? Is this what passes for scholarship in the holocaust world? If you're going to convict and execute people for mass murder, you should have solid evidence. Probably having evidence doesn't cut it.

And holocaust deniers don't underestimate the general size of the death camps. We use your numbers.

She says: "Finally, the map from Arad’s book that the videomaker used is un-scaled and cannot be used to precisely portray the size and area of the camps’ areas or the buildings located in them. The videomaker’s observations about space and scale-or the lack thereof-are therefore invalid when based on this map alone."

She completely mischaracterizes what the videomaker does with the map from Arad's book. The map isn't drawn to scale and that fact is noted in the video. The videomaker uses the dimensions of the camp and the size of the mass graves from the testimony of the eyewitnesses. It would be invalid to make observations about the camp based on map. But he doesn't use the un-scaled drawings on the map to estimate size. Lipstadt must be very stupid or (more likely) being intentionally obtuse knowing that nobody is going to call her on it.

BTW, the video she's talking about is One Third of the Holocaust. It can be seen at onethirdoftheholocaust.com.


There are a lot of people who seem to think it happened just as was reported.

A lot? In North America and Europe, it's more like nearly everybody.
 
Probable? Apparently? Is this what passes for scholarship in the holocaust world? If you're going to convict and execute people for mass murder, you should have solid evidence. Probably having evidence doesn't cut it.

Typical CT stuff. There is a mountain of evidence. Physical, documentary, eyewitness, and circumstantial. However, on this one particular photograph the commentator did not do a forensic examination to determine if the site shown on that photograph may once have held a pile of ash that was once the bones of dead Jews. So, who can trust this stuff?

ETA: Your post was very long, but here's a challenge for you. Ask one question. Just one. One that you think is really, really, good. I'll do what I can to answer it. Give it a shot.

By the way, I've done this before. There's three different patterns of responses, none of which result in a meaningful exchange of information. Let's see if you can break that mold.
 
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I highlighted some of the problems in the above for you.

  • On one hand you are claiming that these ashes disappeared "without a trace."
  • On the other you are claiming that no one looked for these ashes by dredging the Vistula.

Do you see the logical problem with the above position?​

It's the logic of the holocaust that is tripping you up. I don't claim the bodies disappeared without a trace. We're told there were no bodies in the mass graves because the Germans disposed of all traces of the death camps. The bodies were incinerated completely and the bones that remained were crushed to a fine powder with wooden mallets on a concrete slab. Then the powdered bones were dumped in the river where they washed out to sea.

We know how many Jews were killed at the various camps. We know how big the camps were. We know how long the camps were in operation. With those three givens, we know the number of Jews that would be needed to pulverize all the bodies in the time allotted wouldn't fit in the camp.

The believer response is that the bones didn't need to be crushed to a fine powder. They just needed to be small enough to dump in the river. I acknowledge that the bones didn't need to be crushed to a fine powder to be dumped into the river. But if they weren't ground down to a fine powder, they would not have any chance of washing out to sea and there would remain some trace of them.


Meadmaker puts it better than I. "However, I disagree with your characterization. It wasn't necessary to completely erase all the evidence. At the time they were doing this, they thought they were going to win the war and they weren't worried about trials. All they had to do was conceal it sufficiently to prevent troubles that might cause unrest in the occupied territories' civilian populations, or in the ranks of their own military, some of whom had enough integrity to raise some objections to mass murder."

The problem with Meadmaker's position is that if they didn't erase all the evidence, there would have been evidence that could have been gathered in 1945. There would probably be some there today.

And what the Germans could have done isn't relevant. We have a holocaust narrative that says the Germans left no trace of the bodies at the death camps in part by pulverizing all the bones to a fine powder by a bunch of Jews using wooden mallets. Then that is what they must be able to do.
 
But if they weren't ground down to a fine powder, they would not have any chance of washing out to sea and there would remain some trace of them.
Let's say there was. So what?

Dogzilla said:
The problem with Meadmaker's position is that if they didn't erase all the evidence, there would have been evidence that could have been gathered in 1945. There would probably be some there today.
OK let's assume that there was evidence that could have been gathered in 1945. Given the other evidence available at the time, why in the world would someone spend time looking for that specific evidence? Rather than all of the other extremely urgent tasks that needed doing at the end of a war? The Allied powers should have anticipated that some nutters 65 years later would question the voluminous historical record?

I'm pretty sure that you have been previously directed here.

Also see here. This is your primary problem.
 
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And what the Germans could have done isn't relevant. We have a holocaust narrative that says the Germans left no trace of the bodies at the death camps in part by pulverizing all the bones to a fine powder by a bunch of Jews using wooden mallets. Then that is what they must be able to do.

You might have a narrative like that. I'm not sure where you read it, though. The generally accepted historical narrative is somewhat different.
 
"Belzec" Robert Kuwalek in "Der Ort des Terrors", Band 8, Herausgegeben von Wolfgang Benz und Barbara Distel, page 356. (footnotes 104-109)

Is just one of the many reference works that reveals your attempts to manipulate this thread.

For whose benefit are you playing this game?

I don't have this book. I don't know any of the "many reference works" that reveal my attempt to manipulate this thread either. I can respond if you give me something that lends itself to a response.
 
Typical CT stuff. There is a mountain of evidence. Physical, documentary, eyewitness, and circumstantial. However, on this one particular photograph the commentator did not do a forensic examination to determine if the site shown on that photograph may once have held a pile of ash that was once the bones of dead Jews. So, who can trust this stuff?

ETA: Your post was very long, but here's a challenge for you. Ask one question. Just one. One that you think is really, really, good. I'll do what I can to answer it. Give it a shot.

I don't know which particular photograph you are referencing or what it is suppose to show. I'm going to assume your talking about Treblinka mass graves and the photograph is this one. Usually this photo is cropped so you can't get a sense of perspective from people. There are other photos of the Treblinka mass graves here. Why do you think any of these photographs, alone or together, are evidence of a mass grave(s) that is (are) large enough to hold the bodies of at least 700,000 Jews?
 
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