Merged Two Mosques to be built near Ground Zero

Praktik said:
So why do you care what his opinions on 9/11 are?
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To your post before this, if you believe all that then there is little to debate. Most of it is propaganda. There is no denying the fact that the Muslim world opposed the creation of Israel and has done so from the beginning. You need to pick a side in this issue.

As to the above fair question. This is a debate with differing opinions which makes it interesting. Rauf is only one component. I don't oppose American Muslim building anything legal anywhere, but that doesn't mean I can't be critical of them, or their religion in general.

If you want, we can make the field more equal and make some comments about pedophile priests and their protectors, FLDS polygamists, disappearing golden plates, and why not Scientologists too. :rolleyes:

I am critical of Rauf because I think a major project like this (and bound to be controversial to many) should have been developed over time, like the last 10 years, and not sprung out of the blue, and partnered by a recovering alcoholic with a police record who didn't have a pot to pee in 5 years ago, before converting to Islam and being a front man for moneyed property investors.

I am critical of Rauf because I think he is just another politician with a high profile project to make his name by, and I suspect good money.

To keep it short, I will just go with Sam Harris on the rest.
 
Wow, Elind.. you should go to the olympics. You would win gold at the mental gymnastics competition. Seriously, go through the history of this thread and read what you've written. You started out with a "all mosques have terrorist connections" to simply mistrusting politicians as your excuses for being critical of the Islamic Center.
 
DC said:
a problem yes, a local one, it is not even a Parisian problem, it is only in Barbès. 3 small streets. that is getting blown out of proportion, totally.

you also can get accosted here in Basel, i even got assaulted once. It can happen everywhere, and it is in fact happening in a lot of places all over the world. Thats a Human problem, not an Islamic one.
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Yes, there is plenty of crime to go around. We could have a thread on the crime rate of Black Americans for example, and that would prove nothing with regard to Islamic assimilation in other countries.

My opinion is simply that Islam is not well suited to western society, and that is an opinion many Muslims will hold. Europeans naively believed that the immigrants they allowed would join their society eventually, being just another religion. That is not happening unfortunately and the frictions I fear will become worse, not better, and the cause is not all one sided. Islam is much more than just a form of deity worship.

The USA may hopefully take a different path because it has more space and has many more dimensions regarding immigration.
 
Elind said:
My opinion is simply that Islam is not well suited to western society, and that is an opinion many Muslims will hold. .
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All the muslims I went to school with and worked with say different.

They're doing just fine here.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Wow, Elind.. you should go to the olympics. You would win gold at the mental gymnastics competition. Seriously, go through the history of this thread and read what you've written. You started out with a "all mosques have terrorist connections" to simply mistrusting politicians as your excuses for being critical of the Islamic Center.
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Did I say that?
 
Elind said:
Yes, there is plenty of crime to go around. We could have a thread on the crime rate of Black Americans for example, and that would prove nothing with regard to Islamic assimilation in other countries.

My opinion is simply that Islam is not well suited to western society, and that is an opinion many Muslims will hold. Europeans naively believed that the immigrants they allowed would join their society eventually, being just another religion. That is not happening unfortunately and the frictions I fear will become worse, not better, and the cause is not all one sided. Islam is much more than just a form of deity worship.

The USA may hopefully take a different path because it has more space and has many more dimensions regarding immigration.
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Evidence for them not joining our society?
and what do you mean by that? what exactly do they have to join?
most of the Moslem's living here in Switzerland do contribute a lot to our society.
 
Elind said:
Good for them. Ask them why there are so many who don't manage that in other countries. Perhaps Swiss schools are better?
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Haha, maybe its cause contrary to claims made on American cable news during the insane mosque debate that America was obviously the most tolerant and free country in the world - Canada is really #1...;)

Im not surprised to see more difficulties in Europe - old thinking, more nationalism - not really a good conducive environment to integration.
 
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Elind said:
Good for them. Ask them why there are so many who don't manage that in other countries. Perhaps Swiss schools are better?
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So you see the problems in school systems, not with Islam?
 
DC said:
Evidence for them not joining our society?
and what do you mean by that? what exactly do they have to join?
most of the Moslem's living here in Switzerland do contribute a lot to our society.
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I was obviously talking of countries like France, Germany, Holland (where Hirshi had to flee from), southern Sweden, Denmark.

I don't know about Switzerland. If that formula works better, tell the others.
 
Elind said:
I was obviously talking of countries like France, Germany, Holland (where Hirshi had to flee from), southern Sweden, Denmark.

I don't know about Switzerland. If that formula works better, tell the others.
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you was actually talking about 3 streets in Paris. and conclude from a problem in those 3 streets to a problem all over France and meanwhile half of Europe.......

:rolleyes:

and in Switzerland, the Right wing racists are also warning us since decades that the swiss will extinguish in only a few decades, because of all those Moslems undermining our society with they hight birth rates.
it is propaganda, nothing else.
 
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DC said:
So you see the problems in school systems, not with Islam?
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;)

I don't know. I'm guessing. It could also be that there are many fewer Muslims in Switzerland.

There is a group force that becomes evident when many of the same peoples are together, that is not evident in more separate individuals. Islam has rules that could almost be called OCD for those who follow them to the letter. Many don't, but put a lot of people of the same faith together, and the behavior changes.
 
Elind said:
Many don't, but put a lot of people of the same faith together, and the behavior changes.
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I think we've found it!

THe issue here is really the SIZE of the Mosque. Even though the Imam is Sufi - a heretical sect to Al Qaeda - the sheer number of muslims that could fit inside the planned building would unleash the Extremist Behavioural Modifier and soon the whole Mosque would become a threat.

So - I guess the question is, what is the number of muslims at which this effect begins?

WOuld a 50 person mosque in the same location be better to Protect America?
 
DC said:
and in Switzerland, the Right wing racists are also warning us since decades that the swiss will extinguish in only a few decades, because of all those Moslems undermining our society with they hight birth rates.
it is propaganda, nothing else.
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Which part is propaganda? The Swiss don't breed enough or the Muslims (who I presume are also Swiss) breed much more? ;)
 
Elind said:
;)

I don't know. I'm guessing. It could also be that there are many fewer Muslims in Switzerland.

There is a group force that becomes evident when many of the same peoples are together, that is not evident in more separate individuals. Islam has rules that could almost be called OCD for those who follow them to the letter. Many don't, but put a lot of people of the same faith together, and the behavior changes.
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so once they are enough they will turn violent?
 
Praktik said:
I think we've found it!
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Oh dear me. I must concede, I hadn't thought of that angle. Not my opinion.

I was referring more generally to my observations from having lived in places like Saudi for about 10 years. When people of a faith that requires certain behaviors, like praying 5 times a day (to keep it basic) are in the presence of their own, they know they are being judged and act differently from when they are with infidels like me.
 
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