Merged Two Mosques to be built near Ground Zero

[Elind]

The Christian Broadcasting Network.....................................................................................................................................................................................

Oh, so they made it up? Would your comment be any different if the report came from CNN?

 

[Elind]

Does it need to be pointed out that the Muslim population in the US is generally very well integrated into western US society?

No.

 

[Elind]

Well, if you don't want to be taken seriously, that's your business.

The sarcasm was serious.

 

[Cleon]

So, you would have no problem with Christian fundamentalists taking over the streets where you live, as described here, and threatening your life if you complained?

Yes, that follows exactly from the fact that your source is garbage.

 

[Cleon]

Oh, so they made it up?

Fundamentalists have been known to be dishonest in order to promote their point of view. Where you seriously unaware of this fact?

Would your comment be any different if the report came from CNN?

Quite likely. But then, I find it very difficult to believe that CNN would publish an article such as that.

 

[Elind]

Yes please! And I await the same from Alan Colmes, Noam Chomsky, Amy Goodman and Robert Fisk - all of whom have expressed the same opinion and yet haven't committed any terrorist acts or been associated with terrorism (that we know of!)



I've read many clear-cut condemnations of terrorism directly from Rauf in this very thread. Have you read from the start or are you a late-comer?

You quote people like these as your argument?

Reminds me of once a long time ago when I told off a young boy for shooting at birds with a slingshot. He answered that when people are killing each other in wars everywhere (this was in the Middle East, during Iran/Iraq) what did it matter if he killed some birds?

If you don't get my point, don't fret, but I gather that you also think the USA brought 9/11 on itself, so there is little commonality between us.

I've heard spin from Rauf, I am interested why he has refused to answer very specific questions on this matter, or refuted that he ever said the words he did about US deserving 9/11.

 

[DC]

Oh, so they made it up? Would your comment be any different if the report came from CNN?

not made up, just fearmongering. Accusations of political activity and wanting to implement sharia laws without any evidence. 3-5 streets getting blocked for an hour on Fridays in one part of Paris because of a lack of Mosques is somehow used as warning of an Islamification of Europe.

Here the Hindus block the street i am living in for some days when they whorship some of their gods. But somehow nobody warns us of the Hindusiation of Europe....

 

[A'isha]

I've heard spin from Rauf,

You know, I wonder why you even claim you wanted to hear Rauf explain the "deserving 9/11" and "won't condemn Hamas" lies about him if you were just going to ignore his words and call it "spin".

I also wonder why you're so quick to accept what a fundamentalist Christian website says about Islam, but completely dismiss what Rauf says about himself.

I am even more curious why you're not seemingly bothered in the least the fundamentalist that the Christian website you seem to trust so uncritically reposting stuff from CBN, considering CBN is run by a guy who actually did blame America for the 9/11 attacks, unlike Rauf.

I am interested why he has refused to answer very specific questions on this matter

You have listened to the whole interview yourself, rather than just reading out-of-context excerpts posted somewhere, right? Because he explains exactly why he answered the way he did right in that very interview, and expands on that on his website (the relevant portions of which I helpfully quoted for you).

] or refuted that he ever said the words he did about US deserving 9/11.

Because he never said America "deserved" 9/11. In fact, he said just the opposite: "I wouldn't say the United States deserved what happened on 9-11."

He did say right after "But the United States' policies were an accessory to the crime that happened," because of our support for the Afghani forces fighting against the Soviets that later became al-Qaeda and turned against us.

But he's in good company in that regard. Such notable extremist America-haters as Thomas H. Kean and Lee H. Hamilton, former chairman and vice chairman of that anti-American organization known as the 9/11 Commission, said "We face a rising tide of radicalization and rage in the Muslim world -- a trend to which our own actions have contributed."

Rauf's comments about 9/11 were also echoed almost verbatim by another America-hating extremist, Glenn Beck, who said "When people said they hate us, well, did we deserve 9-11? No. But were we minding our business? No. Were we in bed with dictators and abandoned our values and principles? Yes. That causes problems."

So please tell me, Elind: what's the difference between what Beck said and what Rauf said and what the former 9/11 Commission chairs said? And why is what Rauf said so much worse for you, since I don't recall you expressing any concern about how much Glenn Beck or the 9/11 Commission hate and blame America despite saying pretty much the exact same things Rauf did.

Or do you think that they're all equally anti-American, Rauf and Beck and the 9/11 Commission chairmen together?

 

[Praktik]

If you don't get my point, don't fret, but I gather that you also think the USA brought 9/11 on itself, so there is little commonality between us.

Don't let your emotions guide you into the land of straw! I wouldn't ever formulate it so crassly. If you'll re-read what I posted, I said that that certain facets of American foreign policy contributed to the 9/11 attacks.

It's pretty uncontroversial in many circles to assert that. This has nothing to do with justifying the unjustifiable, but it has everything to do with explaining it.

If they just hated freedom, why not attack Belgium, or the Netherlands?

But you're right, there is likely little commonality between us and our views on American foreign policy. But maybe you can try to put yourself in my shoes for just a moment, and consider that holding similar views on 9/11 myself - I am hard pressed to see that as an indicator of extremism or propensity for violence or ideological affinity with terrorists. There's a heck of a lot of mild-mannered, bread and butter, centrist lily-white normal people that think the same thing.

I mean, if we were to believe that believing that IS an indicator of violent potential, then why isn't Alan Colmes in Guantanamo Bay?

Look at him:

I mean, c'mon..

 

[Elind]

not made up, just fearmongering. Accusations of political activity and wanting to implement sharia laws without any evidence. 3-5 streets getting blocked for an hour on Fridays in one part of Paris because of a lack of Mosques is somehow used as warning of an Islamification of Europe.

Here the Hindus block the street i am living in for some days when they whorship some of their gods. But somehow nobody warns us of the Hindusiation of Europe....

If I lived on your street I would object to that too.

As to Paris, I've been there and have relatives there, and they are not CBN contributors. No disrespect meant, but I give their opinion more weight than yours.

I gave one example that was current and you think that is all there is to it.

 

[DC]

If I lived on your street I would object to that too.

As to Paris, I've been there and have relatives there, and they are not CBN contributors. No disrespect meant, but I give their opinion more weight than yours.

I gave one example that was current and you think that is all there is to it.

Last year it was all over the German talking right wing extremist bloggs, it is one part of Paris, Paris is huge, does your relatives live in Barbès ? and i don't know of any other place where something like that happens, and i would also be against it, but that doesn't mean Islam is conquering Paris.

 

[Praktik]

Secret Terrorist Lover, Fareed Zakaria:

While the Arab world has long felt betrayed by Europe's colonial powers, its disillusionment with America begins most importantly with the creation of Israel in 1948. As the Arabs see it, at a time when colonies were winning independence from the West, here was a state largely composed of foreign people being imposed on a region with Western backing. The anger deepened in the wake of America's support for Israel during the wars of 1967 and 1973, and ever since in its relations with the Palestinians. The daily exposure to Israel's iron-fisted rule over the occupied territories has turned this into the great cause of the Arab--and indeed the broader Islamic--world. Elsewhere, they look at American policy in the region as cynically geared to America's oil interests, supporting thugs and tyrants without any hesitation. Finally, the bombing and isolation of Iraq have become fodder for daily attacks on the United States. While many in the Arab world do not like Saddam Hussein, they believe that the United States has chosen a particularly inhuman method of fighting him--a method that is starving an entire nation.

There is substance to some of these charges, and certainly from the point of view of an Arab, American actions are never going to seem entirely fair. Like any country, America has its interests.​

 

[Elind]

Don't let your emotions guide you into the land of straw! I wouldn't ever formulate it so crassly. If you'll re-read what I posted, I said that that certain facets of American foreign policy contributed to the 9/11 attacks.

First of all, as you or someone else has alleged, I haven't accused of Rauf of being a terrorist and I have no doubt that he is strongly against that, just as you are.

As to the facets of US policy that incite mass murder, that is crass bull. For every alleged wrong against Muslims by the US, there are a dozen confirmed instances of help and support.

Using the word contributed, as you do is pure and simple apologia.

 

[Praktik]

Using the word contributed, as you do is pure and simple apologia.

Trader in weasel words and apologia, Fareed Zakaria.

 

[Praktik]

First of all, as you or someone else has alleged, I haven't accused of Rauf of being a terrorist and I have no doubt that he is strongly against that, just as you are.

So why do you care what his opinions on 9/11 are?

 

[Elind]

Last year it was all over the German talking right wing extremist bloggs, it is one part of Paris, Paris is huge, does your relatives live in Barbès ? and i don't know of any other place where something like that happens, and i would also be against it, but that doesn't mean Islam is conquering Paris.

You sound almost as if you agree there might be some problems, but don't really care if it's mostly out of sight.

As I mentioned somewhere earlier my daughter was accosted with friends and her relatives there a couple of years ago, and luckily was saved by some policemen that had to escort them away. That was near the Eiffel Tower.

Even self imposed ghetto people can use the subway.

Let me be clear, that there is genuine racial/religious bigotry is undeniable, but some people like to pretend it is all one sided. It is not.

 

[bit_pattern]

No disrespect meant, but I give their opinion more weight than yours.

And as an outsider looking in, I'd give more weight to the opinion of a European than a Floridian, in all fairness.

 

[A'isha]

Using the word contributed, as you do is pure and simple apologia.

So, Glenn Beck and the Congressionally-appointed chairmen of the 9/11 Commission are apologists, to you? If not, what separates what they said from what Rauf and Praktik said?

If so, we might as well go ahead and take this to the 9/11 Conspiracy subforum, if you think the chairmen of the Commission are really speaking words of "apologia" for terrorism when they also use the exact word "contributed" to describe what American actions have done to inspire anger and violence in the Muslim world.

 

[Praktik]

So, Glenn Beck and the Congressionally-appointed chairmen of the 9/11 Commission are apologists, to you? If not, what separates what they said from what Rauf and Praktik said?

If so, we might as well go ahead and take this to the 9/11 Conspiracy subforum, if you think the chairmen of the Commission are really speaking words of "apologia" for terrorism when they also use the exact word "contributed" to describe what American actions have done to inspire anger and violence in the Muslim world.

Let's remember this whole discussion is now thankfully irrelevant - Elind doesn't think such views are an indicator of extremism and admitted as much above.

Why this was even a question in the first place then is ermmm.. a question in itself - I suppose idle curiousity on Elind's part?

I wonder what the Imam eats for breakfast!

 

[DC]

You sound almost as if you agree there might be some problems, but don't really care if it's mostly out of sight.

As I mentioned somewhere earlier my daughter was accosted with friends and her relatives there a couple of years ago, and luckily was saved by some policemen that had to escort them away. That was near the Eiffel Tower.

Even self imposed ghetto people can use the subway.

Let me be clear, that there is genuine racial/religious bigotry is undeniable, but some people like to pretend it is all one sided. It is not.

a problem yes, a local one, it is not even a Parisian problem, it is only in Barbès. 3 small streets. that is getting blown out of proportion, totally.

you also can get accosted here in Basel, i even got assaulted once. It can happen everywhere, and it is in fact happening in a lot of places all over the world. Thats a Human problem, not an Islamic one.