Deeper than primes

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Please show where I have claimed to have replied to those posts. Doron, no one is under any obligation you respond to every bit of nonsense that spews from your keyboard particularly when it is generally just the same nonsense addressed before often just dressed up with different words. A lack of a direct reply to you simply reposting your same assertions does not infer anyone missed those assertions or that post.
 
So what?, a member of X is not identical to X.

If it has itself as a member then yes, at least one member of "X" is "identical to" "X". That is why it would not be considered a proper set. As a proper subset can not be identical to the original set. Again we have been over this before, review the material.
 
Please prove it in details according to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6292968&postcount=11405, by providing a completed infinite version of this game.

You are also invited to provide a completed infinite version of the following game: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6300549&postcount=11448.

You are again invited to actually read the posts made when you introduced your games before.

Doron your assertion has devolved back to simply an ‘infinite list can not be completed’ which no one argues with, but a set is not a list and you still deliberately ignore that fact.
 
In other words, you actually claim that your assertions are non-local w.r.t my assertions (which are isolated and non-acceptable) , and you take it as privilege of your reasoning.

Thank you for supporting my assertion about Non-locality.

Once again your “direct perception” fails you. Again what I claimed in exactly the words that I have been using all along is that your restrictions limit only you.

Though I must say this is a bit of a change of tact for you. Normally you are trying to ascribe your “local reasoning” to others. However the same caveat still applies. Stop trying to posit some aspect of your own failed reasoning onto others.
 
there is an essential difference between "defined by" and "identical to".

Fore example:

The empty set is defined by emptiness but it is not identical to emptiness, otherwise we have emptiness (nothing) to deal with.

So the essential property of a set is the non-identity with its members.

This non-identity is expressed as the extension of the magnitude of the existence of a set with respect to any magnitude of existence of any possible member.

This essential difference between set and member of a set, naturally prevents Russell's Paradox, because no member of a given set is identical to that set.

Doron, the empty set is defined as a set with no members it is identical to a set with no members that is why there is only one empty set. You seem to be confusing, again perhaps deliberately, a set with a member of that set. Once again it is how the set is defined that determines what constitutes a member of that set including perhaps itself.



The standard notion of sets is based on the notion that a member of a given set is identical to that set, and as a result, there is no difference between a set and its members, this indistinguishably is the core of the "defined by" notion among the concept of Set and the concept of Member, which naturally leads to paradoxes like Russell's Paradox.


Hogwash, once again that is simply your deliberate misrepresentation of what you call “The standard notion of sets”.
 
The Man said:
Doron, the empty set is defined as a set with no members it is identical to a set with no members
Thank you for supporting my claim that your reasoning can't get the difference between "defined by" and "identical to".
The Man said:
You seem to be confusing, again perhaps deliberately, a set with a member of that set. Once again it is how the set is defined that determines what constitutes a member of that set including perhaps itself.
By your definition "that set including perhaps itself" you seem to be confusing, again perhaps deliberately, a set with a member of that set, exactly becuse your reasoning can't get the difference between "defined by" and "identical to".
 
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However the set of all sets would have both itself and the set of all oranges as members,
So what? no member is identical to its set, exactly because the magnitude of existence of a set is beyond the magnitude of existence of any one of its members.

You simply can't grasp the difference between S() and S(S()), which is beyond the member of itself.
 
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You are again invited to actually read the posts made when you introduced your games before.
They are new games, and I see that you can't provide a proof about the infinite case.

Doron your assertion has devolved back to simply an ‘infinite list can not be completed’ which no one argues with, but a set is not a list and you still deliberately ignore that fact.
No The Man, it is a set, actually a set of R members along a given closed 1D path, and I see that you can't get this.


EDIT:

Here is another notion that you are going to miss.

(x>0)/0 is a closed 1D path without 0D elements along it.

...

(x>0)/∞ is a closed 1D path with ∞ 0D elements along it.

4297878664_d74c38b77e_o.jpg




And by playing http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6292968&postcount=11405 and http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6300549&postcount=11448 you can give youself a chance to see things beyond your limited "list reasoning".
 
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They are new games [...]

(x>0)/0 is a closed 1D path without 0D elements along it.

(x>0)/∞ is a closed 1D path with ∞ 0D elements along it.

Both cases are a closed path leading to the places of higher education, such as the kindergarten, coz a division by zero and by infinity that produces a unique result is considered a non-momentary lapse of reason. BUT...!
Code:
(x>0)\0 is a closed 1D path without 0D elements along it.

(x>0)\∞ is a closed 1D path with ∞ 0D elements along it.
The above assertion clearly indicates the following . . .

>Without is to Zero as With is to Infinity<

Both opposites "with" and "without" are the only active change on the right side of IS, and that means this change must be responsible for the change from 0 to infinity on the left side of your statement. That also means that you hold zero and infinity as opposites. But that's not true: zero is a number (positive and negative numbers), whereas infinity is not a number -- it is a concept according to which ever-increasing/decreasing values are treated. The opposite to "infinite" is "finite," as the the opposite to "nothing" is "something."

Can nothing be infinitely large?

If it can, does it mean that something can be

1) infinetely small
2) finitely large
3) finitely small
4) all cases considered
5) some cases considered

:confused:

2) finitely large

Welcome to the Misty Mountain Hop University. :)
 
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zero is a number (positive and negative numbers), whereas infinity is not a number
No problem, if we are talking about the magnitude of existence of 0D elements on a closed 1D element then:

(x>0)\0 is a closed 1D path with magnitude of 0 existence of 0D elements on it.

(x>0)\1 is a closed 1D path with magnitude of 1 existence of 0D elements on it.

...

(x>0)\|R| is a closed 1D path with magnitude of |R| existence of 0D elements on it.

4297878664_d74c38b77e_o.jpg


And by playing http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6292968&postcount=11405 and http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6300549&postcount=11448 you can give yourself a chance to see things beyond your limited "list reasoning".
 
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Let’s discuss about Russell’s Paradox:
The paradox arises within naive set theory by considering the set of all sets that are not members of themselves. Such a set appears to be a member of itself if and only if it is not a member of itself, hence the paradox.
( http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/russell-paradox ).

The accepted solution for most mathematicians is ZF(C), which avoids the paradox by disallow sets as their own members.

In ZFC, given a set A, it is possible to define a set B that consists of exactly the sets in A that are not members of themselves.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_paradox )

ZFC does not assume that, for every property, there is a set of all things satisfying that property. Rather, it asserts that given any set X, any subset of X definable using first-order logic exists. The object R discussed above cannot be constructed in this fashion, and is therefore not a ZFC set. In some extensions of ZFC, objects like R are called proper classes.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_paradox )

Proper classes are: "objects having members but that cannot be members." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann-Bernays-Godel_set_theory )

ZF(C) framework arbitrarily avoids the paradox by disallow sets as their own members.

This paradox is possible because naive set theory does not distinguish between given set X, and set X as a member of set X.

By understanding the difference between given set X, and set X as a member of set X, both Russell’s Paradox and proper classes, are avoided.

For example, the empty set is defined by emptiness but it is not identical to emptiness, otherwise we have emptiness (nothing) to deal with. Since there are no many cases of emptiness, then the empty set is an existing and unique mathematical element.

Given any non-empty set, it is defined by its members but it is not identical to them because its existence is stronger than the members’ existence exactly as the empty set extends is stronger than the existence of emptiness.

By understanding the consistent extension of a given set w.r.t its members (whether it is empty, or not) we are able to distinguish between set’s definition by its members and set’s identity w.r.t its members.

Two sets that have the same members are identical, but the difference between a set and its members holds , whether the set is empty or not.

Some analogy:

Two identical trees are actually the same tree, but it does not mean that the absence or the existence of the branches of that tree is identical to the trunk of that tree.

By that analogy, the trunk’s existence as a living organism is stronger than the existence of the branches, such that cutting the branches does not kill the tree, but cutting the trunk kills the tree.

Exactly as (x>0)/0 or (x>0)/1 is an existing closed 1D path (whether there is or there is no element along it) a set exists independently of its members, and therefore it is defined by them (exactly as a trunk is defined by its branches or their absence) but it is not identical to them (no branch or its absence is identical to the trunk).

EDIT:

Here is an informal presentation taken from (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_paradox )
Let us call a set "abnormal" if it is a member of itself, and "normal" otherwise. For example, take the set of all squares. That set is not itself a square, and therefore is not a member of the set of all squares. So it is "normal". On the other hand, if we take the complementary set that contains all non-squares, that set is itself not a square and so should be one of its own members. It is "abnormal".

Now we consider the set of all normal sets, R. Attempting to determine whether R is normal or abnormal is impossible: If R were a normal set, it would be contained in the set of normal sets (itself), and therefore be abnormal; and if it were abnormal, it would not be contained in the set of normal sets (itself), and therefore be normal. This leads to the conclusion that R is both normal and abnormal: Russell's paradox.
By understanding the difference between given set X, and set X as a member of set X, the difference between “abnormal” and “normal sets is insignificant.
 
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Thank you for supporting my claim that your reasoning can't get the difference between "defined by" and "identical to".

Your "direct perception" has failed you again.

By your definition "that set including perhaps itself" you seem to be confusing, again perhaps deliberately, a set with a member of that set, exactly becuse your reasoning can't get the difference between "defined by" and "identical to".

Doron a set that defines itself as a member has itself as a member (though it is not a proper set or more specifically it can not be a proper subset of itself). The confusion, deliberately or otherwise, again remains entirely yours, as we have been over all this before.



So what? no member is identical to its set, exactly because the magnitude of existence of a set is beyond the magnitude of existence of any one of its members.

Again when the definition of a member of that set includes that set then a member of that set is specifically identical to that set.

You simply can't grasp the difference between S() and S(S()), which is beyond the member of itself.

You simply can’t grasp that a set being a member of itself is specifically about it being a member of itself, but evidently that simple fact is beyond, well, just you.
 
They are new games, and I see that you can't provide a proof about the infinite case.

Doron you’re still playing the same game and the proof about “the case” remains the same. Regardless of what point you choose as your first “target” from your “arbitrary player as a source” you have already skipped over an infinite number of other “targets” between those two points. Likewise for every subsequent “target”, as your current rules require


3) Reverse ordering is not allowed in this game, so it must be played in a certain direction along the closed curve.



So you can’t even go back to those missed points. Basically you have excluded an infinite number of points from your ‘visiting’ and as a result you end up with a finite set of points that you can list as having been ‘visited’ while the majority of points were not.



No The Man, it is a set, actually a set of R members along a given closed 1D path, and I see that you can't get this.

Sure you can make a set out of the list of all the points you “visit” in your “game”, but it will be a discrete space not a continuous space. This is the same game you keep trying to play, deliberately substituting some finite set for an infinite one.


EDIT:

Here is another notion that you are going to miss.

(x>0)/0 is a closed 1D path without 0D elements along it.

...

(x>0)/∞ is a closed 1D path with ∞ 0D elements along it.

[qimg]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4039/4297878664_d74c38b77e_o.jpg[/qimg]

“Here is another notion that you” obviously missed “(x>0)/0” and “(x>0)/∞” are not ‘paths’.





No Doron by playing your game of apparently deliberate ignorance one simply conforms to your apparently deliberate ignorance.
 
You simply can’t grasp that a set being a member of itself is specifically about it being a member of itself, but evidently that simple fact is beyond, well, just you.

X which is defined as being a member of itself, is not identical to X , because "defined as" is different than "identical to", which is a notion beyond the ability of your reasoning.

If set X is identical to its member, then there is no difference between being a Set and being a Member for that set.

In this case X() = X(X()), which is always False.

Since this is always False, then no member (including set X as a member of set X) is identical to set X.
 
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Regardless of what point you choose as your first “target” from your “arbitrary player as a source” you have already skipped over an infinite number of other “targets” between those two points
Since we are dealing with a collection of distinct points that its cardinality = |R|, then this is your challenge to show how to define a target without missing any point, by using the agreed reasoning.

So please show how it is done.

Sure you can make a set out of the list of all the points you “visit” in your “game”, but it will be a discrete space not a continuous space.
No, a continuous 1D space is not a collection of distinct 0D elements, as your reasoning claims.
 
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“Here is another notion that you” obviously missed “(x>0)/0” and “(x>0)/∞” are not ‘paths’.
Specially for you:

There is a closed 1D path, such that:

(x>0)/0 is 0 0D elements on it.

(x>0)/1 is 1 0D elements on it.

...

(x>0)/|R| is |R| 0D elements on it.

Here are (x>0)/0 and (x>0)/1 cases (at the top of diagrams 1,2,3):

4297878664_d74c38b77e_o.jpg
 
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The Man,

You asked me to show a missing point along a line segment.

My answer is: the statement "there are distinct 0D elements with no gaps between them", is always false (a contradiction).

You are invaded to show that the statement "there are distinct 0D elements with no gaps between them", is always true (a tautology).
 
X which is defined as being a member of itself, is not identical to X , because "defined as" is different than "identical to", which is a notion beyond the ability of your reasoning.

Once again Doron if it is “defined as” a member of itself then it is "identical to" at least one member of itself, namely itself. For some reason that simple concept still seems to be beyond you.

If set X is identical to its member, then there is no difference between being a Set and being a Member for that set.

Again "set X" doesn’t have to be the only member of itself. As in the case of the set of all sets, the set of all oranges is also a member of that set but is not identical to the set of all sets. Once again this is why sets having themselves as members are not proper sets as they can not be proper subsets of themselves.


In this case X() = X(X()), which is always False.

Since this is always False, then no member (including set X as a member of set X) is identical to set X.

Once again it simply depends on how one defines what constitutes a member of that set.
 
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