Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[joobz]

From BibleGateway.com

Colossians 2:16 (New Living Translation)

So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.

Acts 20:7 (King James Version)

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

From Wiki's article: Circumcision controversy in early Christianity

The first Christian Church Council in Jerusalem[1], held in approximately 50 AD, decreed that circumcision was not a requirement for Gentile converts. This became known as the "Apostolic Decree"[2] and may be one of the first acts differentiating Early Christianity from Judaism.[3] At roughly the same time Rabbinic Judaism made their circumcision requirement for Jewish boys even stricter.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_controversy_in_early_Christianity

The Council in Jerusalem was attended by Peter, the other apostles, Paul, the elders, and James. See the Book of Acts chapter 15.

None of quotes address the question asked about sunday worship.

 

[DOC]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.....

DOC - how about an answer about the multiple deaths of the so-called martyrs?

You see - I'm curious about how several of them emulated their "Saviour" by coming back to life - in some cases, more than once....

explain

...You see I can't get my head around the "fact" that because the author was apparently a well-travelled man, this somehow is evidence that the gospel writers wrote the truth?

Gospel writer Luke's highly detailed accurate accounts as demonstrated by the 84 accurate facts exhibited 1/4 of the way down on this link--

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51643

-- shows a man who is meticulous about facts. To think that he suddenly becomes loosey goosey when reporting on the life of the famous Jesus doesn't make sense. And Luke did report on miracles done by some apostles during his lifetime. The only reason not to believe those reports is a supernatural bias (given Luke's demonstrated pinpoint accuracy on other minute details).

 

[DOC]

None of quotes address the question asked about sunday worship.

So Sunday is not the first day of the week in your mind?

 

[DOC]

..Geisler's point is that it doesn't make sense for these 12 Jewish apostles and the Jewish Paul to abandon these 1000 year old sacred beliefs and to risk their salvation by adopting new beliefs if Jesus had just died on the cross and that was it...

Risk what?

So then you must believe that all the prophets in the OT who were constantly warning the Jews to turn from their sinful ways were just wasting their time because God would never allow those sins (or the sins of the apostles violating Jewish laws) to affect how they would spend the afterlife.

 

[Akhenaten]

DOC, since you like quoting apologist sites for your own arguments, you'll of course have no objection to reading a reference provided by our side, will you?

The 12 Apostles – Fabricated Followers of a Fabricated Saviour


Let's know what you think.

 

[Akhenaten]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.....

DOC - how about an answer about the multiple deaths of the so-called martyrs?

You see - I'm curious about how several of them emulated their "Saviour" by coming back to life - in some cases, more than once....

explain

No, DOC, you explain. How does it come about that there are multiple different accounts for the deaths of these martyrs?

You shouldn't need references, because they're all in the New Testament, and you obviously know everything that's in there, don't you?

...You see I can't get my head around the "fact" that because the author was apparently a well-travelled man, this somehow is evidence that the gospel writers wrote the truth?

Gospel writer Luke's highly detailed accurate accounts as demonstrated by the 84 accurate facts exhibited 1/4 of the way down on this link--

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51643

We've been there already, DOC. That this mythological Luke fellow apparently knew his way about an atlas does not make him an authority on any other subject.

Why do you pretend that this has not been explained to you ad nauseum already? Ramsay himself tried to explain it to you, and still you refuse to see.

-- shows a man who is meticulous about facts. To think that he suddenly becomes loosey goosey when reporting on the life of the famous Jesus doesn't make sense.

That's what a belief in sky fairies will do for a bloke - even a mythical one. Of course it doesn't make sense. Neither do your posts. See the common element there?

And Luke did report on miracles done by some apostles during his lifetime.

Yet more demerit points. There's no such thing as miracles, DOC, so anyone whose claim to fame is reporting on them is obviously not to be trusted.

The only reason not to believe those reports is a supernatural bias (given Luke's demonstrated pinpoint accuracy on other minute details).

The main reason not to believe those reports is that they are clearly fairytales. Supernatural bias, is it? What about removing that bias by providing some evidence for the supernatural then, DOC?

 

[Akhenaten]

None of quotes address the question asked about sunday worship.

So Sunday is not the first day of the week in your mind?

That's completely irrelevant, DOC. The point is that none of your quotes address the question of any particular day being set aside for worship. You provided nothing more than a reference to a one-time occurrence.

 

[Akhenaten]

..Geisler's point is that it doesn't make sense for these 12 Jewish apostles and the Jewish Paul to abandon these 1000 year old sacred beliefs and to risk their salvation by adopting new beliefs if Jesus had just died on the cross and that was it...

Risk what?

So then you must believe that all the prophets in the OT who were constantly warning the Jews to turn from their sinful ways were just wasting their time because God would never allow those sins (or the sins of the apostles violating Jewish laws) to affect how they would spend the afterlife.

Nimrod the Red Herring will be returning soon, DOC. Your response has nothing to do with what Fitter's reference had to say about salvation. Did you even bother to read it?

Here's a little quote, just to show you what you're missing:

As there is no concept of ‘original sin’ in Judaism, there isn’t really any concept of needing to be ’saved’. You’ll never, ever hear any Jew speak of this, in fact.

So, as Fitter legitimately asked you, risk what?

 

[zooterkin]

The rule of "So" again...

So Sunday is not the first day of the week in your mind?

So, you seem to have unaccountably missed my response. Here it is again:

Well, it's a good attempt, but you have strayed away from what I asked, so I'll ignore the part about circumcision. Actually, I won't, not entirely, but we'll come to that.

Where is your evidence that the New Testament writers did any of these things? Do you have the first clue how the early church developed? To pick just one, when do you think Sunday worship started?

From BibleGateway.com

Colossians 2:16 (New Living Translation)

So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.

Doesn't say anything about Sunday worship.

Acts 20:7 (King James Version)

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

That's a one-off occasion, nothing about it being a regular arrangement. Paul was only there for a week. Here's the preceding verse, too:

Acts 20:6-7 (King James Version)
6And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.

7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

From Wiki's article: Circumcision controversy in early Christianity

Odd that you've quoted the completely unrelated wiki article for circumcision, rather than the one about Sunday observance which doesn't support your implication that the choice of Sunday was from the bible.

Sabbath observance

According to Bauckham, the New Testament and post-apostolic church contained diverse practices as regards Sabbath. Most Jewish Christians continued to observe seventh-day Sabbath, some out of strict obedience to the law and others for customary reasons. Meanwhile some Gentile Christians adopted Jewish Shabbat while others did not, considering themselves free from observance of the Law of Moses.[9]

By the 2nd century, most Gentile Christians rejected Sabbath observance as a judaizing tendency, although some Christian and gnostic sects continued to observe Sabbath as evidenced in Ignatius' letter to the Magnesians.[9]

So, no evidence, either in the bible or outside it, to support your claim that the New Testament writers said:

to hell with worshiping on Saturday and your 1000 year old sacred tradition that we followed all of our lives -- we're now worshipping on Sunday because of what the dead Jesus taught.

 

[Agatha]

-- shows a man who is meticulous about facts. To think that he suddenly becomes loosey goosey when reporting on the life of the famous Jesus doesn't make sense. And Luke did report on miracles done by some apostles during his lifetime. The only reason not to believe those reports is a supernatural bias (given Luke's demonstrated pinpoint accuracy on other minute details).

James Cameron was absolutely meticulous about facts in his screenplay for the film Titanic (and I can point you to far more than a mere 84 accurate facts in the screenplay) - but that doesn't make Jack Dawson or Rose deWitt Bukater real people, nor does it make the story of Jack and Rose and Cal true.

 

[shawmutt]

So Sunday is not the first day of the week in your mind?

This has nothing to do with the fact that the story of Jesus and the adultress was fabricated and not a part of the original Gospels.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

So then you must believe that all the prophets in the OT who were constantly warning the Jews to turn from their sinful ways were just wasting their time because God would never allow those sins (or the sins of the apostles violating Jewish laws) to affect how they would spend the afterlife.

Doc, seriously, can you answer a simple question for once?
Have you ever read the Bible?

Being dishonest about your debating tactics is one thing, but your insane ignorance about the bible is astounding.
Why are you so cling to defend a book you know nothing about?

There is no afterlife in the OT. The OT is super clear that god will either punish you in this life or your offspring in this life. No afterlife what so ever.

Give at least one reference in the OT that talks about an afterlife.

 

[amb]

Very few christians have read the babble cover to cover. If they have, there would be more atheists around.

 

[DOC]

Well Hoku's post really didn't address the main point of Geisler's argument. The first and second point of Geisler's argument was that the NT writers abandoned their long held sacred beliefs and adopted new ones. Why would historical people like the Jewish Peter and Jewish Paul and all the other 11 Jewish apostles abandon a perfectly good religion that was part of their culture and sacred heritage for over 1000 years. In their Jewish Religion they were the chosen race, with a special calling from God. Why throw all that under the bus and basically say to hell with worshiping on Saturday and your 1000 year old sacred tradition that we followed all of our lives -- we're now worshipping on Sunday because of what the dead Jesus taught. To hell with your (and formerly ours) 1000 year old sacred tradition of worship, we're now having communion and breaking the bread and drinking the wine because of what our dead Jesus taught. We're accepting the Gentiles now and not even requiring them to have our 1000 year old sacred circumcision because of what our dead Jesus taught,

Geisler's point is that it doesn't make sense for these 12 Jewish apostles and the Jewish Paul to abandon these 1000 year old sacred beliefs and to risk their salvation by adopting new beliefs if Jesus had just died on the cross and that was it. It only makes sense if they did indeed see him in his risen state.

Where is your evidence that the New Testament writers did any of these things? Do you have the first clue how the early church developed? To pick just one, when do you think Sunday worship started?

From BibleGateway.com

Colossians 2:16 (New Living Translation)

So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.

Acts 20:7 (King James Version)

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

From Wiki's article: Circumcision controversy in early Christianity

The first Christian Church Council in Jerusalem[1], held in approximately 50 AD, decreed that circumcision was not a requirement for Gentile converts. This became known as the "Apostolic Decree"[2] and may be one of the first acts differentiating Early Christianity from Judaism.[3] At roughly the same time Rabbinic Judaism made their circumcision requirement for Jewish boys even stricter.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_controversy_in_early_Christianity

The Council in Jerusalem was attended by Peter, the other apostles, Paul, the elders, and James. See the Book of Acts chapter 15.

So your evidence that the NT is true is the fact that is the N.T. You are not getting this evidence thing are you.

Zooterkin asked for evidence that the NT writers did the things I mentioned such as communion (breaking bread), worshiping on Sunday (first day of week), and allowing gentiles to be part of the Church and not having to be circumcised, all things that were against Jewish traditions. I provided historical writings from Paul and a man who has been called a great historian (Gospel writer Luke). If you don't believe providing historical writings about non-supernatural events from a great historian is evidence then maybe you are the one not getting the evidence thing.

 

[zooterkin]

Zooterkin asked for evidence that the NT writers did the things I mentioned such as communion (breaking bread), worshiping on Sunday (first day of week), and allowing gentiles to be part of the Church and not having to be circumcised, all things that were against Jewish traditions.

No, really, I didn't:

Where is your evidence that the New Testament writers did any of these things? Do you have the first clue how the early church developed? To pick just one, when do you think Sunday worship started?

I also don't see any reply to my response. You seem to have missed it twice now.

 

[Akhenaten]

Zooterkin asked for evidence . . .

<snip>

And rather than provide any you just post a heap of spam.

Stop it.

 

[X]

So Sunday is not the first day of the week in your mind?

The first day of the week is an arbitrary designation.
Some people use Sunday, others use Monday, others use whatever day they want to.



Oh, and congratulations on using a question mark!

 

[wollery]

Zooterkin asked for evidence that the NT writers did the things I mentioned such as communion (breaking bread), worshiping on Sunday (first day of week), and allowing gentiles to be part of the Church and not having to be circumcised, all things that were against Jewish traditions. I provided historical writings from Paul and a man who has been called a great historian (Gospel writer Luke). If you don't believe providing historical writings about non-supernatural events from a great historian is evidence then maybe you are the one not getting the evidence thing.

Well now, let's see. "Break bread" is oldy worldy speak for having a meal together, and preaching isn't limited to the Sabbath in Judaism. In fact in Orthodox families it's common to have the head of the house read a lesson every evening. Jews encourage literacy, particularly of the Torah and Talmud.

Allowing gentiles to be part of the church was a fairly central tenet of Christianity from the start, otherwise it would have been a pretty short lived religion. As for not requiring circumcision of the gentile converts, well, I wonder why on earth they came up with that idea? Could it be because it's a bit off-putting for potential converts - "You want me to do what? Let me get back to you next week when I've had time to think about it." <runs for exit>

 

[RoboTimbo]

DOC, do we need to continue quoting Akhenaten?

Nimrod the Red Herring will be returning soon, DOC. Your response has nothing to do with what Fitter's reference had to say about salvation. Did you even bother to read it?

Here's a little quote, just to show you what you're missing:

​

So, as Fitter legitimately asked you, risk what?

 

[joobz]

So Sunday is not the first day of the week in your mind?

Actually, No.
I always consider monday the first day of the week. But that doesn't really matter since that's my view.

What I find interesting is how you haven't answered the question and how you selectively ignore other parts of the bible:
Acts 13:13-14
"From Paphos, Paul and his companions sailed to Perga in Pamphylia, where John left them to return to Jerusalem. 14From Perga they went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the synagogue and sat down."

It seems Paul still respected the Sabbath...