Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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(msg #5175, p130)

Do you really think that the Perugia police just run wild, beat up witnesses and concoct evidence?

Apart from all the indications in this case that that is exactly what they did with both Amanda Knox and Patrick Lumumba, there is the unexplained death of Aldo Bianzino, a non-violent alleged drugs offender in the custody of the Perugia police just 3 weeks before the Kercher murder.
 
At least one set of keys to the cottage were known to be unaccounted for so the first thing the police should have done to secure the crime scene was rekey the locks.

So how does a triple deadbolt lock accidentally open when the police have the only keys? How does it end up getting locked again or why isn't it noticed when the team returns in December? How do they not notice the tampering of that seal?


Massei Report said:
While the Scientific Police were in the house, it was under surveillance, and after that the seals were placed. After November 7th, the last day of the search by the personnel of the Questura of Perugia, the next access to the house on via della Pergola was the entry on December 18, 2007, which has already been discussed, 273

[294] and no seals were broken between November 7 and December 18, 2007. So there was no illicit access to the house during this period.


So Massei says there was no entry. Since Massei is a big daddy judge that must override a picture on the Internet.
 
I believe Amanda and Raffaele were already under arrest before Raffaele made the statement about Filomena's door being open. Hence we can't draw a connection between their inconsistency about the door and why the police came to suspect them of the crime.

Questions about Amanda and Raffaele's credibility are circumstantial, at best. In the big picture, their stories are consistent and reliable.

I guess that's just it, to you they are but to me they are not consistent and reliable. This was one of the first things I remember noticing while reading on this case early on and to me it was a pretty significant detail. There still does not seem to be any way this glaring inconsistency should occur if both are telling the truth.

It's interesting that Matteini doesn't mention this in her report. She says the only point on which their accounts varied was the dirty toilet.

In any case, witness testimony varies widely with regard to details. This has been studied extensively and the research has been summarized in this discussion. Google von Liszt experiment, Elizabeth Loftus, Robert Buckout.

I agree witness testimony varies. The way Raffaele wrote his account, I believed it. He emphasized how the details of that morning were very clear to him. For me, if I believe Raffaele's account then Amanda is wrong, and if Amanda is wrong then the door to Filomena's room was open when she took a shower and therefore she is lying in her account.

So Massei says there was no entry. Since Massei is a big daddy judge that must override a picture on the Internet.

What was the date on that picture again?
edit: nevermind, found it
 
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Apart from all the indications in this case that that is exactly what they did with both Amanda Knox and Patrick Lumumba, there is the unexplained death of Aldo Bianzino, a non-violent alleged drugs offender in the custody of the Perugia police just 3 weeks before the Kercher murder.

He died in Capanne prison, allegedly at the hands of prison guards, not in the custody of Perugia police. I don't think to date Amanda has complained of beatings by prison guards so I fail to see the relevance. Also, the police who first arrested him were from the town of Città di Castello. He was then brought to the prosecutor's office in Perugia from where he was sent to prison. Something obviously happened to him but likely at Capanne, as is charged.
 
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I agree witness testimony varies. The way Raffaele wrote his account, I believed it. He emphasized how the details of that morning were very clear to him.
So you do believe that Raffaele is innocent? Or do you believe only parts of his account of the morning are true?

What in Amanda's account of the events shows that the details are not as clear to her as they are to Raffaele?
 
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"I've never seen any discussion from the innocentisti on why Raffaele would say Filomena's door was wide open and he could see straight away there was a big mess in there, while Amanda says the door was closed. This is a pretty significant detail yet they say completely opposite things."

I posted the above several pages back but not one person was willing to offer a plausible explanation for why their stories differed so significantly on this important detail. Don't you think this could be one very valid reason why the police came to suspect them after hearing their stories? The only responses anyone posted to this were sarcastic non-responses from Katody Matrass. I still would like to hear why I should believe them when glaring inconsistencies like this exist.

Witnesses get things wrong. That's all there is to any of these supposed "gotchas". That is a plausible explanation for why their stories vary so significantly on that detail.

What would be highly suspicious is if Amanda and Raffaele were perfectly in sync about every aspect of their statements.

This is a very old mole that has been whacked very many times. I hope this is the last we see of it.
 
Look at the reference photo of the new tenant in the doorway and notice the position of the door knob on the door. Then look at the photo taken November 14, 2007 and find the door knob.


I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here either.

If these are the two photos you're comparing,

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BZD30a25F.../s1600-h/Perugia+crime+scene+-+front+door.jpg

... and ...

http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fVoSkrnCCyfZcl7cyGJzVYh4l5k2TGxc ,

I don't understand what it is you're pointing out. Could you explain in more detail. I guess I'm just dumbing up.
 
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here either.

If these are the two photos you're comparing,

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BZD30a25F.../s1600-h/Perugia+crime+scene+-+front+door.jpg

... and ...

http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fVoSkrnCCyfZcl7cyGJzVYh4l5k2TGxc ,

I don't understand what it is you're pointing out. Could you explain in more detail. I guess I'm just dumbing up.

The door behind the grating is wide open. But the paper "seal" looks intact. Can't see how it could prove anything either.
 
So you do believe that Raffaele is innocent? Or do you believe only parts of his account of the morning are true?

What in Amanda's account of the events shows that the details are not as clear to her as they are to Raffaele?

I believed the door was open and that Raffaele told the truth about this detail. His was the more convincing version to me. I have not said I believe him innocent. It is a highly significant detail to get wrong and I cannot chalk it up to "witnesses get things wrong".

Witnesses get things wrong. That's all there is to any of these supposed "gotchas". That is a plausible explanation for why their stories vary so significantly on that detail.

What would be highly suspicious is if Amanda and Raffaele were perfectly in sync about every aspect of their statements.

This is a very old mole that has been whacked very many times. I hope this is the last we see of it.

Kevin, which witness got it wrong, Amanda or Raffaele? This mole has not been whacked enough and you trying to brush this off doesn't diminish in any way its significance.
 
Precautionary detention for terrorist types and mafia members

There is nothing in that article about some special law being used to hold them without being charged. Is the amount of time they were held significantly longer than other people arrested for murder in Italy?

As for the appeal, I just reread Bruce's summary and there is no mention about him being denied a speedy trial. RS's issues surrounding his rights being violated involve being denied a lawyer and being denied accesss to evidence.

Alt+F4,

I have linked to this word document before. The manuscript has some errors in the introduction that are irrelevant to the thrust of the legal argument, IMHO. IIRC this law was designed for terrorists and mafia members. It is the 1995 amendment to this law that forbids interrogation without a recording being made, as I mentioned previously. I asked a lawyer to read through this article and he did not detect any errors in its legal reasoning.

http://works.bepress.com/benjamin_sayagh/1/
 
Kevin, which witness got it wrong, Amanda or Raffaele?

That's impossible to determine with the facts available.

This mole has not been whacked enough and you trying to brush this off doesn't diminish in any way its significance.

It doesn't diminish the significance in your eyes, perhaps, but I think I'd be doomed to a frustrating life if I made changing your mind my goal here.

Witnesses get things wrong. Amanda, Raffaele, Filomena and the police who arrived at the scene all got things wrong. None of that means any of them are murderers.

I realise that this is a big realisation to swallow for some people, who have invested themselves heavily in researching and treasuring these "gotchas" and "contradictions" in fallible people's testimony and who think that each one of these "contradictions" is solid evidence of guilt. However it's simply how the human mind works. We're much worse than we think we are at accurately recalling the details of events.

In any case, even if these sorts of perfectly normal and expected human errors were evidence of guilt, they are highly inconclusive evidence of guilt. You cannot pile a lot of highly inconclusive arguments together and treat them as a conclusive argument. As an Italian judge once said, half a clue plus half a clue does not equal a whole clue, it equals nothing.

Whereas there is conclusive evidence you are still ignoring that says that the entire Massei narrative is hogwash from start to finish. Unless you successfully solve the problem of Meredith's empty duodenum, her time of death was before 22:00 at the latest and Massei's whole story is sunk. That's not based on inconclusive, fallible witness recollection it's based on hard science.
 
I believed the door was open and that Raffaele told the truth about this detail. His was the more convincing version to me. I have not said I believe him innocent. It is a highly significant detail to get wrong and I cannot chalk it up to "witnesses get things wrong".

I stand with my version that both of them told the truth.

Compare carefully Amanda's email account with Raffaele's paragraph from the diary. There is no contradiction. Raffaele is right when he recalls seeing the door wide open. Amanda states she enetered the house first and proceeded to open the doors. Raffaele doesn't say anything to the contrary. Apparently he followed her and saw the room open.

Of course this is only one of possible explanations. There are other equally probable and similarly not incriminating. Unless there is something else apart from your intuition that makes a scenario in which Amanda lied more probable you will not convince anyone.

And I agree with Kevin's more eloquent post - this particular problem is really not essential for the question of their guilt, while the time of death is.
 
I believed the door was open and that Raffaele told the truth about this detail. His was the more convincing version to me. I have not said I believe him innocent. It is a highly significant detail to get wrong and I cannot chalk it up to "witnesses get things wrong".

Kevin, which witness got it wrong, Amanda or Raffaele? This mole has not been whacked enough and you trying to brush this off doesn't diminish in any way its significance.


As Katody suggests, it is more likely Raffaele got it wrong. Amanda would have mentioned it in her e-mail if she had already seen the state of Filomena's room before she went to get Raffaele. It is probable that Amanda opened the door for Raffaele and when he wrote it down his account, he just started with the fact that the door was open, not that Amanda opened it. He may not have thought it that significant. It's also probable he forgot, given that he wrote about it several traumatic days after the fact.
 
As Katody suggests, it is more likely Raffaele got it wrong. Amanda would have mentioned it in her e-mail if she had already seen the state of Filomena's room before she went to get Raffaele. It is probable that Amanda opened the door for Raffaele and when he wrote it down his account, he just started with the fact that the door was open, not that Amanda opened it. He may not have thought it that significant. It's also probable he forgot, given that he wrote about it several traumatic days after the fact.

Amanda was given explicit instructions by Filomena to check everything so of course she would have opened Filomena's door after returning to the cottage. When she was at the cottage earlier she had no such permission to snoop into the other girls rooms.

Raffaele mentions setting the mop and bucket down in the front doorway and Amanda taking it to another part of the house. The closet where the mop was stored and later retrieved by the police is in the hall between Amanda's and Filomena's rooms. Amanda must walk past Filomena's door on the way to the mop closet so she could very easily have opened the door, returned the mop then come back to Filomena's room where Raffaele then was.
 
Amanda was given explicit instructions by Filomena to check everything so of course she would have opened Filomena's door after returning to the cottage. When she was at the cottage earlier she had no such permission to snoop into the other girls rooms.

Raffaele mentions setting the mop and bucket down in the front doorway and Amanda taking it to another part of the house. The closet where the mop was stored and later retrieved by the police is in the hall between Amanda's and Filomena's rooms. Amanda must walk past Filomena's door on the way to the mop closet so she could very easily have opened the door, returned the mop then come back to Filomena's room where Raffaele then was.

Thanks, Dan O.

This is exactly why I gave up on trying to track down each of these supposed "gotchas" about what Amanda or Raffaele said at any given time individually. Whenever I ran one to earth it turned out to be based on a lie or a distortion of actual events, or there was a perfectly innocent explanation.

After the third or fourth such claimed mountain turns out to be a molehill I think it's reasonable to ask that the guilters provide chapter and verse for any future such claims, rather than making us waste our time nailing them down for them.

It's particularly pointless because so many of these "gotchas" make as little sense if they were guilty as they do if they are innocent. Why would a guilty Amanda lie about what order she called Meredith's mobile phones in? Beats me. Why would a guilty Amanda lie about Filomena's door being closed? Beats me. I guess the idea is that Amanda had "guilty knowledge" and she slipped up, but that's only a persuasive argument if the knowledge is something which she couldn't have known, couldn't have guessed and couldn't have gotten wrong. The state of Filomena's door sure doesn't qualify.
 
Amanda was given explicit instructions by Filomena to check everything so of course she would have opened Filomena's door after returning to the cottage. When she was at the cottage earlier she had no such permission to snoop into the other girls rooms.

Raffaele mentions setting the mop and bucket down in the front doorway and Amanda taking it to another part of the house. The closet where the mop was stored and later retrieved by the police is in the hall between Amanda's and Filomena's rooms. Amanda must walk past Filomena's door on the way to the mop closet so she could very easily have opened the door, returned the mop then come back to Filomena's room where Raffaele then was.

I can agree with you except the part about when she was at the cottage earlier. When she was at the cottage earlier she supposedly encountered an open door, blood in her bathroom, unflushed feces which as she said none of her roommates would do, yet she didn't try to rouse her roommates behind closed doors to see what the hell happened, not even a knock or trying the handle?
 
Thanks, Dan O.

This is exactly why I gave up on trying to track down each of these supposed "gotchas" about what Amanda or Raffaele said at any given time individually. Whenever I ran one to earth it turned out to be based on a lie or a distortion of actual events, or there was a perfectly innocent explanation.

After the third or fourth such claimed mountain turns out to be a molehill I think it's reasonable to ask that the guilters provide chapter and verse for any future such claims, rather than making us waste our time nailing them down for them.
It's particularly pointless because so many of these "gotchas" make as little sense if they were guilty as they do if they are innocent. Why would a guilty Amanda lie about what order she called Meredith's mobile phones in? Beats me. Why would a guilty Amanda lie about Filomena's door being closed? Beats me. I guess the idea is that Amanda had "guilty knowledge" and she slipped up, but that's only a persuasive argument if the knowledge is something which she couldn't have known, couldn't have guessed and couldn't have gotten wrong. The state of Filomena's door sure doesn't qualify.

These aren't "gotchas" or whatever other little pet name you want to call things these days Kevin-Lowe, and I really don't know why such a large number of your comments have to be so rude and arrogant.

And because you claim not to understand why Amanda would lie about the door being closed, how about considering the possibility that she already knew what lay behind it.
 
These aren't "gotchas" or whatever other little pet name you want to call things these days Kevin-Lowe, and I really don't know why such a large number of your comments have to be so rude and arrogant.

I feel the term is appropriate. If you find my use of that particular term rude I regret that.

However it's worth emphasising that here at the JREF forums ridiculous ideas and arguments are fair game for robust criticism. I find all of these "gotchas" ridiculous and I see a moral obligation to explain their ridiculousness.

And because you claim not to understand why Amanda would lie about the door being closed, how about considering the possibility that she already knew what lay behind it.

I already addressed this potential response. See what I wrote above about "guilty knowledge".

You still aren't addressing the elephant in the room, the time of death.

I find this akin to arguing with someone who believes that a dragon is hiding in his house even after we have proved that dragons do not exist, and keeps presenting arguments like "But a neighbour said they saw a puff of smoke, how do you explain that?" and "If there is no dragon in my house then why is some of my cheese missing?".

I think if you just accepted for a minute that dragons don't exist, you could make up your own theories to account for a puff of smoke and some missing cheese on your own that would be as serviceable as anything I could give you.

If you assume for a minute that Amanda and Raffaele were at home watching Naruto until 21:49 or later and Meredith died at 21:30 or earlier, are you genuinely incapable of explaining from that perspective how they might have made two conflicting statements about the state of a given door?

It's an identical puzzle to ones like "How could Filomena and the postal police possibly have made statements that conflicted with each other, or with verifiable facts like the time at which phone calls were made?". If you can crack that one then you should have no difficulties with the "gotcha" about Filomena's door.
 
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These aren't "gotchas" or whatever other little pet name you want to call things these days Kevin-Lowe, and I really don't know why such a large number of your comments have to be so rude and arrogant.

And because you claim not to understand why Amanda would lie about the door being closed, how about considering the possibility that she already knew what lay behind it.

Piecing together a crime is like putting a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle.
You have a murder and now you are trying to put all the pieces together. The prosecution sees this piece of evidence. It almost fits in the puzzle where they want to put it. However, instead of setting it aside and looking for the correct piece they force this piece where the want it.

What the prosecution has done with this case is when they come across a piece of the puzzle they forced it to where it best fit or might fit. When they come across the next piece and it looked like it might fit in the spot of the last piece they placed, they ignored that problem. They just forced the next piece somewhere else. If the next piece they came across didn't appear to fit anywhere in the puzzle, they just tossed that one aside.

Basicly these oh they lied because one says the door was open and the other says it was closed are pieces that appear they could fit. However, what if both are telling the truth. Amanda looks through the house, opens Filomena's door and looks in. Sollecito walks by the door, its open and looks in. What if one of thems memory is just wrong innocently. When you try someone for a crime and concentrate on small details and avoid the large details you are making a mistake. There are large details that point to innocence, yet those are ignored in favor smaller details that make someone look guilty. They dont make them guilty. You try and use an excuse because there are a couple details in there statements that contradict each other to justify persecuting them. Yet, even the other witnesses, used against knox/sollecito, have given statements that have contradicted their own previous testimony. This is passed off as they remembering it wrong. Yet Knox and Sollecito aren't given the same courtesy.

If everyone that made an inaccurate statement or outright lied was guilty, that prison would be full of convicted murderers.
 
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When Amanda first returned to the cottage in the morning, she saw the front door was open but that wasn't unusual. The girls sometimes left the door open when they ran out for a quick errand. She called out but nobody answered. Amanda closed the door but didn't lock it because that might lock her roommate out.

Amanda went to take her shower. Who was it that said that she walked naked from her room to the bath? The heat was off in the cottage. I imagine she would have slipped on her bath robe for the short trek.

It was when she got out of the shower that she noticed some blood in the bathroom. There were only a few spots of blood visible. It's hard to even see them in the Spheron imagery even when you know where they are. Is this enough to wake your roommates who may have been out partying late the night before?

The last thing Amanda sees is the unflushed feces in the toilet. This freaks Amanda out a little and combining that with open door and the blood in the bathroom she decided to grab the mop that she came for and leave. Perhaps one of her thoughts was that there had been an intruder in the house. The instinctive thing to do would be to get away from the house.

They all have cell phones so Amanda doesn't have to act like the typical bimbo in a scare movie and hang around the scene with the killer right behind the door. She starts calling her roommates starting with Meredith because she is closest and they speak the same language. Meredith's phone rings but is not answered. Amanda then calls Filomena. From Filomena Amanda learns that Laura is out of town so Meredith is the only roommate unaccounted for.

Amanda tries again to call Meredith but this time both phones go directly to voice mail. This doesn't mean anything in particular because Meredith could have turned the phones off so as not to be disturbed. There are now 3 missed calls from Amanda on Meredith's phones so there is no need to continue calling as Meredith would get the message and return the call if she turns the phones back on.


This is all perfectly natural if you can set aside the fact that Meredith is lying dead on the floor behind her locked door. Guilters apparently cannot set this fact aside when evaluating Amanda's behavior that morning.
 
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