Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[Childlike Empress]

Correct me if I am wrong CE but you do indeed 'chafe' (my bad before) at being lumped in with the so-called 911 Truth Movement?

I already corrected you in the post you quoted. I don't object to be called a truther at all. But you don't get the point. Ask yourself: Why do you want me to answer those questions? Why does my opinion on those catch phrases matter to you?

 

[ozeco41]

I too have some issues with NIST, specifically the thermal expansion phase failure of column 79 of WTC 7.

I don't believe they investigated the possibility that the girder was pulled off its column seat by contraction in the cool down phase after the fire moved on, rather than their theory that it was pushed off by thermal expansion during the heating phase.

I think that NIST could have recommended more strongly that fiberous insulation be replaced by cementatious insulation on steel.

I think NIST could have done more to investigate the differences between the fire codes for the PANYNJ and those of NYC and how they affected the fire behaviours on Sept 11.

but these are relatively minor points.

Our positions are similar. I have no real interest in commenting on the recommendations of the type you quote given that they are USA/NYC/PANYNJ specific. If it had been an Australian event then my position would be much more assertive. Emergency and incident management was a significant strand of my professional career - emphasis on water/sewerage systems emergencies plus bushfire prevention/response.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

In defense of RedIbis, I don't think he's outright claimed the FDNY are liars. He simply believes that they are mindless automatons and buffoons incapable of distinguishing a relatively safe situation from a potentially life-threatening situation, or even assessing the severity of a building fire.

 

[RedIbis]

Although you didn't produce a quote of my calling any ff a liar, I will address your points because your tone is civil and your questions are specific. I hope you'll respond to my questions in kind.

You have accused them of being dupes who were fooled into believing statements from higher ups?

Those are your words. I've never called any ff a "dupe." You are wholly misrepresenting anything I've ever said about FDNY.

That means higher ups were involved in the deception? This means you think that some members of the FDNY were involved in covering for the collapse of WTC7.

My opinions are base entirely on quotations. I don't know what "higher ups were involved in the deception." I know that the collapse of WTC 7 was not a foregone conclusion because of consensus among ffs, but because word was handed down from the OEM.

You said there was no discernible inferno at the WTC7.

Correct, because there isn't one.

That is a false statement that contradicts what many of the FDNY say they witnessed. It contradicts what Mike Catalano said and he was in the building while it was on fire.

As is the case in damn near any large scale traumatic event, you will have a range of descriptions, some colored by the adrenaline and power of that day.
Do you think NIST describes the WTC 7 as an inferno? When someone says that WTC 7 was fully involved, do you think photo, video and NIST agree with that assessment?

You have said that it is the first unadulterated comment or statement about a situation that is the important one yet you fail to apply this to Willie Rodriguez tall stories from later dates.

No debunker on jref has ever been able to substantiate the claim that Willie changes his story so dramatically as to discredit everything he has said. I've always found these arguments reduced to booms and rumbles, absolutely ridiculous. Much to your dismay, Willie is enjoying a very successful career that does not rely on his 9/11 experience, and yet at the same time, he is still telling his story and reaching international audiences by the millions.

You have accused Myers of deserting his duty on 911.

A thousand freaking percent. That guy should face military tribunal for his dereliction of duty.

You have accused Silverstein of being a liar.

Correct. He's never proved his claim that he talked to a FDNY commander before watching the bldg collapse, that the nonexistent ffs would be pulled out of the bldg.

You have lied about another member here saying it was proven that they lied.

Quote, otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about.

You are a hypocrite. A dishonest one.

Great, and you're a doodyhead. I don't really think namecalling is going to get us anywhere, but I'm not above it. It's only the commendable moderation here that prevents me from being as explicit and uncivil as I'm used to, to get my point across.

Amongst the many people I've criticized by name, I have never once accused any FDNY firefighter of any misdeed. Never. I took the time to address each of your points, the least you could do is produce such a quote or drop that stupid bs.

 

[jaydeehess]

I already corrected you in the post you quoted. I don't object to be called a truther at all. But you don't get the point. Ask yourself: Why do you want me to answer those questions? Why does my opinion on those catch phrases matter to you?

You said I could call you a 'truther' but that does not neccessarily address my, or anyone else refering to you as a member of the 911TM.

However you might read my posts again with a mind to notice that I was not always referring specifically to you alone.

Since there are those who do get upset at being labeled as 'truther' or as part of a loose group known as the 911 truth Movement I now most often use longer phrasing along the lines of 'those who do not believe the common narritive of the events of 911'.

Why do I do this? Why do I care?
Because I do not wish to be derailed into 'don't call me that' asides..
Clear now?


As for why I ask your opinion on those 911 conjectures, I already explained that I am most interested in the technical side of the arguements, not the political arguements.
"Catch phrases"? Did I misrepresent these technical conjectures at all? Are they not indeed put forth by others in much the same way I phrased them? I am trying to discover what it actually is that you believe caused the destruction on Sept 11/01. A political will or whim did not cause people to die. Impact, fire, smoke inhalation caused people to die. Continue reading.

WHY?
Because, as pointed out before, if the technical arguements for explosives, thermite, DEW, or any of the other myriad conjectures from that side of the 911 discussion, do not hold any water then all you are left with is the political arguement and THAT cannot physically bring down a building. This means that the only option available to those pursueing a political arguement is that there indeed were 4 hijacked aircraft, they were used as suicide weapons to attack symbols of American wealth and power.
Now the arguement would shift to who OBL really is, what Al Qada really is. If Al Qada really is a coalition of forces opposed to western influence in the Islamic Holy Land and it is the brainchild of OBL, then all that is left, for the persons who claim 911 was not as reported, is that some element(s) of the US government specifically obstructed any intervention in these attacks.

I would follow those arguements, perhaps contribute to the discussion, but its not really my baliwick.

So, given that I have explained in some detail, my position. If you care to continue in discussion with me concerning political motives so dear to your heart,then do me thee justice of addressing the topics I am more inclined to be interested in.

If you wish to refer to me as politically illiterate but will not address any technical issues then does that make you technically illiterate?

 

[jaydeehess]

Our positions are similar. I have no real interest in commenting on the recommendations of the type you quote given that they are USA/NYC/PANYNJ specific. If it had been an Australian event then my position would be much more assertive. Emergency and incident management was a significant strand of my professional career - emphasis on water/sewerage systems emergencies plus bushfire prevention/response.

I am Canadian and as such many Americans have asked me why I am interested in these and other American issues. Simple answer is summed up in the analogy that is often used here; " when the USA catchs a cold, Canada sneezes" Our economy, culture, laws and regulations are all heavily influenced by the proximity to our largest trading partner.

If fiber fire retardents are no longer used in the USA then chances are that they will no longer be used in Canada either, for instance.

 

[jaydeehess]

No debunker on jref has ever been able to substantiate the claim that Willie changes his story so dramatically as to discredit everything he has said. I've always found these arguments reduced to booms and rumbles, absolutely ridiculous. Much to your dismay, Willie is enjoying a very successful career that does not rely on his 9/11 experience, and yet at the same time, he is still telling his story and reaching international audiences by the millions.

.

Well WR states that he heard/felt two shocks to the building. He witnessed neither first hand yet somehow 'knows' that the second one was the aircraft impact. Odd, how does one know this when one is in the basement?

Secondly, when WR actually gave his statement to NIST did he mention this at all? NO, instead all he spoke to was that WTC maintenance was not as it should have been, locked doors, storage in the firestairs. Only later, aside from the investigation into the event, did he begin his tale about the impact following an explosion rather than the other way around. Odd, no?

 

[funk de fino]

Although you didn't produce a quote of my calling any ff a liar, I will address your points because your tone is civil and your questions are specific. I hope you'll respond to my questions in kind.

OK.

Those are your words. I've never called any ff a "dupe." You are wholly misrepresenting anything I've ever said about FDNY.

They are looking at a building that that you say would not collapse due to fire and are not able to see that, yet when they are told it will collapse, they just believe it? They cannot see things with their own eyes? They cannot hear the creaking? They cannot see the bulge in the side? They just believe it when someone says it? What does that make them?

My opinions are base entirely on quotations. I don't know what "higher ups were involved in the deception." I know that the collapse of WTC 7 was not a foregone conclusion because of consensus among ffs, but because word was handed down from the OEM.

Lets see what you said Red

I think that at some time earlier in the day, word began to hit the streets from high level members of the FDNY and OEM that WTC 7 was going to collapse. Many firefighters on the scene received the word and reported being warned of its collapse, they cleared the area and then it collapsed

The building could in no way collapse due to fire yet these high level members of the FDNY spread it that it would? Why would they do that? Would ot the firefighters and demo eaxperts at the scene not make their own assessments? The highers up and the OEM did not put the transit on it. They did not go inside the building. What made the higher ups in the FDNY spread falsehoods?

Correct, because there isn't one.

Correct. Not now. But there was. The smoke proves it as does the evidence of fires on at least 10 floors in WTC7. Mike Catalano said it was a huge fire. He was in the building and had to escape from it.

As is the case in damn near any large scale traumatic event, you will have a range of descriptions, some colored by the adrenaline and power of that day.

You said we must always take the first statement yet you fail too do so in Willie's case. That is hypocrisy.

Do you think NIST describes the WTC 7 as an inferno? When someone says that WTC 7 was fully involved, do you think photo, video and NIST agree with that assessment?

An inferno and fully involved are terms you fail to understand. If a FDNY member who was there says there was an inferno and the building engineer says it was a huge fire then I believe him over you.

No debunker on jref has ever been able to substantiate the claim that Willie changes his story so dramatically as to discredit everything he has said. I've always found these arguments reduced to booms and rumbles, absolutely ridiculous. Much to your dismay, Willie is enjoying a very successful career that does not rely on his 9/11 experience, and yet at the same time, he is still telling his story and reaching international audiences by the millions.

I do not care how succesful Willie is at anything. He is a liar. He changed his story years later and yoou fail to take his first account when you look at your version of events. A rumble like furniture moving is not expolosions or bombs.

A thousand freaking percent. That guy should face military tribunal for his dereliction of duty.

A disgraceful distortion of the facts of that day. I would say dishonest. We now know that as soon as he got word that there had been a terrorist attack he left his meeting. Is this a failure to carry out his duty? How did this affect what happened that day?

Correct. He's never proved his claim that he talked to a FDNY commander before watching the bldg collapse, that the nonexistent ffs would be pulled out of the bldg.

No-one said there was FF in the building. That would be around the building. Do you feel that Silverstein never talked to anyone from the FDNY all day? What is your evidence?

Quote, otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Someone here told an anecdote and you claimed he was a proven liar. It was not proven that anyone was lying. Your ego prevented you from admitting your mistake.

Great, and you're a doodyhead. I don't really think namecalling is going to get us anywhere, but I'm not above it. It's only the commendable moderation here that prevents me from being as explicit and uncivil as I'm used to, to get my point across.

I call it as I see it from your posting history.

Amongst the many people I've criticized by name, I have never once accused any FDNY firefighter of any misdeed. Never. I took the time to address each of your points, the least you could do is produce such a quote or drop that stupid bs.

See above quote about higher ups from the FDNY. Care to explain that one first?

Maany demo experts were a few hundred feet from WTC7 when it collapsed yet none of them heard a CD. Why is that Red?

 

[RedIbis]

See above quote about higher ups from the FDNY. Care to explain that one first?

Are the higher ups ffs or was I making a distinction?

Even in the post you quoted from me, it's blatantly clear how I suggest word of WTC 7's collapse might have hit the streets. But at least you helped prove once again that I've never called any ff a liar.

 

[RedIbis]

Well WR states that he heard/felt two shocks to the building. He witnessed neither first hand yet somehow 'knows' that the second one was the aircraft impact. Odd, how does one know this when one is in the basement?

Secondly, when WR actually gave his statement to NIST did he mention this at all? NO, instead all he spoke to was that WTC maintenance was not as it should have been, locked doors, storage in the firestairs. Only later, aside from the investigation into the event, did he begin his tale about the impact following an explosion rather than the other way around. Odd, no?

A commercial airliner strikes a skyscraper and you don't think someone in the basement would feel it or hear it above them?

 

[ozeco41]

I am Canadian and as such many Americans have asked me why I am interested in these and other American issues. Simple answer is summed up in the analogy that is often used here; " when the USA catchs a cold, Canada sneezes" Our economy, culture, laws and regulations are all heavily influenced by the proximity to our largest trading partner.

If fiber fire retardents are no longer used in the USA then chances are that they will no longer be used in Canada either, for instance.

Noted with interest thank you - the synergy with US activities is natural.

 

[DGM]

A commercial airliner strikes a skyscraper and you don't think someone in the basement would feel it or hear it above them?

I think he was referring to how he decided the second (shock) was the plane.

Seemed obvious to me.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Are the higher ups ffs or was I making a distinction

He means higher ups like Assistant Deputy Chief Gerard Barbara, Battalion Commander John Fanning, Battalion Commander Orio Palmer, Battalion Commaner John Paolillo, Chief of Department Peter Ganci and others.

It's these guys with fancy titles who aren't real firefighters that RedIbis believes were responsible for spreading the lies about WTC7. Sitting there safely behind their desks while the real heroes are out on the streets fighting for peoples lives.

Those are the ones RedIbis accuses of lying.

 

[RedIbis]

He means higher ups like Assistant Deputy Chief Gerard Barbara, Battalion Commander John Fanning, Battalion Commander Orio Palmer, Battalion Commaner John Paolillo, Chief of Department Peter Ganci and others.

It's these guys with fancy titles who aren't real firefighters that RedIbis believes were responsible for spreading the lies about WTC7. Sitting there safely behind their desks while the real heroes are out on the streets fighting for peoples lives.

Those are the ones RedIbis accuses of lying.

Anyone can read what I said originally,

I think that at some time earlier in the day, word began to hit the streets from high level members of the FDNY and OEM that WTC 7 was going to collapse. Many firefighters on the scene received the word and reported being warned of its collapse, they cleared the area and then it collapsed

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Anyone can read what I said originally,

I think that at some time earlier in the day, word began to hit the streets from high level members of the FDNY and OEM that WTC 7 was going to collapse. Many firefighters on the scene received the word and reported being warned of its collapse, they cleared the area and then it collapsed

Why don't you look up those names and then think carefully how you are going to re-word that statement?

 

[Bell]

Interesting article about the construction site at Ground Zero:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/05/nyregion/05zero.html?_r=1&hp

Photo gallery here:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/09/05/nyregion/20100905-Zer0-SS.html?ref=nyregion

 

[triforcharity]

Are the higher ups ffs or was I making a distinction?

Even in the post you quoted from me, it's blatantly clear how I suggest word of WTC 7's collapse might have hit the streets. But at least you helped prove once again that I've never called any ff a liar.

Yes, the "higher ups" that you refer to, are all firefighters. Just because they have a few bugles on their lapel, doesn't mean they aren't firefighters. Der.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Yes, the "higher ups" that you refer to, are all firefighters. Just because they have a few bugles on their lapel, doesn't mean they aren't firefighters. Der.

There was no such thing as a "higher up" that day. The Chief of Department himself was killed in the line of duty on September 11th. The only man above Chief Ganci in the FDNY chain of command was Mayor Rudolph Guiliani
.

Everyone, regardless of actual rank, was just another soldier on the front line that day. Chiefs, commanders, captains and lieutenants bled and died the same as the youngest rookies. So yes, Redibis has specifically stated that the firefighters who risked their lives and lost their dearest blood were deliberate and willful participants in the conspiracy and the murder of their own sons, fathers and brothers.
Be ashamed, Red... if you can.

 

[RedIbis]

There was no such thing as a "higher up" that day. The Chief of Department himself was killed in the line of duty on September 11th. The only man above Chief Ganci in the FDNY chain of command was Mayor Rudolph Guiliani
.

Everyone, regardless of actual rank, was just another soldier on the front line that day. Chiefs, commanders, captains and lieutenants bled and died the same as the youngest rookies. So yes, Redibis has specifically stated that the firefighters who risked their lives and lost their dearest blood were deliberate and willful participants in the conspiracy and the murder of their own sons, fathers and brothers.
Be ashamed, Red... if you can.

Yey! Semantics. What would you jreffers do without it. Any time you want to post a quote of my calling FDNY ffs a liar, go right ahead. We all know youcan't

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I'd say it is somewhat similar to Jones accusing fire fighters of staying quiet because something as comparatively minor as pensions were threatened to be withheld if they spoke up about something as comparatively major as the murder of three hundred of their own. Except rather than calling them cowards they're just being called gullible. Not that I' intend to play semantics or anything...