Ed Debunking Erik Lawyer of Firefighters for 9/11 Truth

[leftysergeant]

As I recall, Schroeder mentions finding the 24th floor or thereabouts massively damaged, possibly from an explosion, and a burn victim in a closet. This suggests to me that fuel went down several of the shafts, perhaps only those that were, for some reason or another, open on at one floor or another at the time of impact.

Do we have statements from people who were working on other floors as to what they experienced as far as fuel explosions or impacts?

 

[triforcharity]

I'll research that, it's possible.

 

[Christopher7]

As I recall, Schroeder mentions finding the 24th floor or thereabouts massively damaged, possibly from an explosion, and a burn victim in a closet. This suggests to me that fuel went down several of the shafts, perhaps only those that were, for some reason or another, open on at one floor or another at the time of impact.

Do we have statements from people who were working on other floors as to what they experienced as far as fuel explosions or impacts?

You are assuming kerosene is a very destructive explosive. Such is not the case. It does not expand anywhere near as fast as an "explosive" like C4 and there was only about a quart of kerosene per sq ft of floor space.

How big was that freight elevator? 10'x10'?
~36 gallons of kerosene in a 12'x12' shaft, 1,000 feet high will not cause any appreciable damage.

 

[BigAl]

You are assuming kerosene is a very destructive explosive. Such is not the case. It does not expand anywhere near as fast as an "explosive" like C4 and there was only about a quart of kerosene per sq ft of floor space.

A fuel-air explosion is very powerful. Here are two short examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xCgNdZPKk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cQOUuJ1DWI
​

A quart of gas as vapor will blow up a house. Call a house 2,000 sqft. That's a tiny amount of gas compared to how much was in WTC.

The military calls these thermobaric bombs and they are devastating on enclosed spaces.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/blu-118.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon​

How big was that freight elevator? 10'x10'?
~36 gallons of kerosene in a 12'x12' shaft, 1,000 feet high will not cause any appreciable damage.

Much larger.

An eyewitness (under oath) and a bunch of burn victims say you are wrong.

The fire, the ball of fire, for example, I was in the basement when the first plane hit the building. And at that moment, I thought it was an electrical generator that blew up at that moment. A person comes running into the office saying explosion, explosion, explosion. When I look at this guy; has all his skin pulled off of his body. Hanging from the top of his fingertips like it was a glove. And I said, what happened? He said the elevators. What happened was the ball of fire went down with such a force down the elevator shaft on the 58th . freight elevator, the biggest freight elevator that we have in the North Tower, it went out with such a force that it broke the cables. It went down, I think seven flights. The person survived because he was pulled from the B3 level. But this person, being in front of the doors waiting for the elevator, practically got his skin vaporized.

William Rodriquez
Transcript of NIST Public Meeting in New York City . February 12, 2004

 

[ozeco41]

For those who don't think that fuels such as gasoline have much explosive potential - think again. Have a look at this. I have the newsreel videos on videotape but nothing to post unfortunately.

On Wednesday, April 22, 1992, the 461-year old city of Guadalajara, Mexico, experienced a series of ten massive explosions occurring in the heart of the downtown Reforma district.
The explosions began at 10:30 a.m. (12:30 p.m. EDT) and continued for two hours. Five hours after the initial explosion, a second large explosion occurred about three miles from the Reforma site. The blasts measured 7.1 and 7.0 on the Richter scale at the University of Mexico in Mexico City some 200 miles away.

http://www.drj.com/drworld/content/w2_028.htm
http://www.semp.us/publications/biot_reader.php?BiotID=356
And on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_explosions_in_Guadalajara

 

[leftysergeant]

You are assuming kerosene is a very destructive explosive. Such is not the case. It does not expand anywhere near as fast as an "explosive" like C4 and there was only about a quart of kerosene per sq ft of floor space.

Why are you presuming to lecture a veteran Air Force fire fighter on the behavior of jet fuel in a fire? You obviously know precisely SQUAT about it.

That stuff is used to shove hundred+ton aircraft around the sky. The stuff expands real good when it deflagrates. And it burns hot. Far hotter than gasoline.

As for its not expanding as fast as C-4, well freakin' DUH! There was nbo C-4 or RDX or TNT or ANFO in the towers on 9/11. People would not have been burned had there been HE of any description involved. They would have been frappe'ed at that range.

But a vaporized hydrocarbon fuel capable of moving an airliner will set fire to you and it will move walls.

How big was that freight elevator? 10'x10'?
~36 gallons of kerosene in a 12'x12' shaft, 1,000 feet high will not cause any appreciable damage.

That came out of your butt.

 

[triforcharity]

Here is another Fuel-Air explosion Chris. Maybe you should tell these firefighters that witnessed their fellow firefighter severely injured that it is "not very powerfull".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dSpoUUFBBM&feature=PlayList&p=75CE26B13348D2E6&index=0&playnext=1
About 1:45 is when it starts.

BTW, IIRC, it was just 3 gallons of gasoline that caused that explosion.

 

[fess]

Here is another Fuel-Air explosion Chris. Maybe you should tell these firefighters that witnessed their fellow firefighter severely injured that it is "not very powerfull".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dSpoUUFBBM&feature=PlayList&p=75CE26B13348D2E6&index=0&playnext=1
About 1:45 is when it starts.

BTW, IIRC, it was just 3 gallons of gasoline that caused that explosion.

A perfect example of why NFPA 1403 was accepted as the standard for live fire training.

 

[triforcharity]

At the time, NFPA 1403 was not required by law to be observed. It is now though.

 

[Andy_Ross]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buncefield_fire

Explosion and fire at the Buncefield Depot.

 

[Gravy]

Do we have statements from people who were working on other floors as to what they experienced as far as fuel explosions or impacts?

Just a few.

​

Inside the Towers: Summary of Witness Accounts: Reports of Jet Fuel/Kerosene, Fireballs, Damage to Elevators & Shafts, Injuries In and Near Elevators, Fallen Elevators, Fires, Damage Below Impact Zones

Inside the North Tower: Witness Accounts, Floors 91-60

Inside the North Tower: Witness Accounts, Floors 59-02

Inside the North Tower: Witness Accounts, Plaza & Concourse Lobbies, Basement Levels

Inside the South Tower: Witness Accounts

 

[alienentity]

Just a few.

We are humbled by the presence of Gravy. How ya doing? Hope all is well..

AE

 

[Mr. Skinny]

We are humbled by the presence of Gravy. How ya doing? Hope all is well..

AE

I'm the forum god. Be humbled by my presence.

Actually, I don't think Gravy appreciates other people fawning over him. Best I can tell, he's a NYC denizen who's just another face in the crowd.

That said, I do hope he's doing well.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Gravy must be bored.

 

[ktesibios]

Here is another Fuel-Air explosion Chris. Maybe you should tell these firefighters that witnessed their fellow firefighter severely injured that it is "not very powerfull".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dSpoUUFBBM&feature=PlayList&p=75CE26B13348D2E6&index=0&playnext=1
About 1:45 is when it starts.

BTW, IIRC, it was just 3 gallons of gasoline that caused that explosion.

Ordinary automotive gasoline has an energy density of about 130 MJ/gal, so 3 gallons of the stuff, vaporized, mixed with air and ignited should yield around 390 MJ. That's approximately equivalent to the energy content of 94 kg of TNT.

 

[alienentity]

I'm the forum god. Be humbled by my presence.

Actually, I don't think Gravy appreciates other people fawning over him. Best I can tell, he's a NYC denizen who's just another face in the crowd.

That said, I do hope he's doing well.

Oh lighten up, for crying out loud, Gravy rarely makes an appearance here, it's a special occasion for me anyway. As far as I'm concerned he deserves a boatload of appreciation considering all the abuse he's taken over the years.

Back to the topic...

 

[alienentity]

You are assuming kerosene is a very destructive explosive. Such is not the case. It does not expand anywhere near as fast as an "explosive" like C4 and there was only about a quart of kerosene per sq ft of floor space.

How big was that freight elevator? 10'x10'?
~36 gallons of kerosene in a 12'x12' shaft, 1,000 feet high will not cause any appreciable damage.

Facepalm... see what happens when you think you're the world's expert on every subject? You say a lot of very stupid things.

If there were an award for 'most bare assertion fallacies per post' you'd win it, hands down. Please stop. You are convincing nobody.

 

[dafydd]

Facepalm... see what happens when you think you're the world's expert on every subject? You say a lot of very stupid things.

If there were an award for 'most bare assertion fallacies per post' you'd win it, hands down. Please stop. You are convincing nobody.

It's funny to follow this thread,Chris appears to know bugger all about any subject.

 

[leftysergeant]

Just a few.

Okay. Enough, at least, to support an argument that a lot of the reports of an explosion or explosions perievent were from jet fuel travelling down the elevator shafts.

Thanks, Gravy.

 

[Oystein]

...
~36 gallons of kerosene in a 12'x12' shaft, 1,000 feet high will not cause any appreciable damage.

36 gallons of kersone, burning, will release about as much energy as a ton of TNT.

Think about it.