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There is not a single mass grave of holohoax victims.

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Of course evidence for the holocaust is substantial.

Good.

Evidence for six million deaths,

Actually, if we are to include Romani, Jehova's Witnesses, homosexuals, disabled people and the rest of the Nazi victims, the total number of deaths in the Holocaust lies somewhere between 11 and 17 million. And, yes, there is plenty of evidence for this.

many of them in gas chambers,

Lots of evidence for this as we've already been through. Physical evidence like gas chambers, incinerators and mass graves, testimonies from perpetrators and surviving victims, documents and reports and loads of photos and films.

as part of an intention plan to exterminate all the Jews is not.

The plan was to "solve the Jewish issue", meaning, to get rid of the Jews in the German sphere of influence. At the Wansee conference, it was decided that the best and easiest way to accomplish this was to simply kill them.

Recognize the difference.

Yes. You simply deny the overwhelming evidence for part of the holocaust as opposed to the equally overwhelming evidence for the whole thing. That makes you what? Denier/2?
 
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As already stated, you are right, not a single mass grave, but multiple mass graves.
Exactly. Multiple mass graves where they were expected to be found. Doesn't prevent Holocaust deniers from perpetuating a thread they knew was doomed from the start, though. Nor will showing that they are wrong prevent them from starting with the same exact claim in a different one.
 
Of course evidence for the holocaust is substantial. Evidence for six million deaths, many of them in gas chambers, as part of an intention plan to exterminate all the Jews is not. Recognize the difference.
The ~6 million slaughtered Jews and the use of gas to kill large numbers are both well-established facts. This evidence has been cited repeatedly, but I suppose there's no way to be heard over the weird soliloquies that play out within neo-nazi skulls. Mass graves full of human ash and bone were identified and documented after the war, which makes this thread mostly a parade of perverse ignorance on the part of Saggy.

I don't know why you guys hate the Jews, and I don't care, but you can't parlay your lapse of sanity into an argument simply by repeating it over and over.

The fact that you think it even matters exactly how and how many died shows how bizarre your mindset is. The Nazis were led by vicious, hateful sociopaths -- the world regards their legacy with horror and disgust. Your baloney is just as popular, and deservedly so.
 
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The fact that you think it even matters exactly how and how many died shows how bizarre your mindset is. The Nazis were led by vicious, hateful sociopaths -- the world regards their legacy with horror and disgust. Your baloney is just as popular, and deservedly so.[/QUOTE]

My general thesis about Saggy and his kind is that their views represent a particular type of moral and intellectual cowardice. Most of his type are failures in life and their views represent an inability to face the fact that whatever it is they were trying to accomplish, they simply weren't good enough. They weren't smart enough, fast enough, didn't work hard enough whatever. Instead of doing what a mature person does when they encounter failure and learn from it they find a scapegoat so as to avoid facing the reality of their short comings.

I'm not sure arguing that 2+2=4 with a person like this helps much. By engaging in the discussion you validate their position making it seem as they they have legitimate points.
 
I'm not sure arguing that 2+2=4 with a person like this helps much. By engaging in the discussion you validate their position making it seem as they they have legitimate points.

Well, that's an age-old problem, but it would be pretty quiet around here if debunkers were put off that easily.
 
The ~6 million slaughtered Jews and the use of gas to kill large numbers are both well-established facts. This evidence has been cited repeatedly, but I suppose there's no way to be heard over the weird soliloquies that play out within neo-nazi skulls. Mass graves full of human ash and bone were identified and documented after the war, which makes this thread mostly a parade of perverse ignorance on the part of Saggy.

I don't know why you guys hate the Jews, and I don't care, but you can't parlay your lapse of sanity into an argument simply by repeating it over and over.

The fact that you think it even matters exactly how and how many died shows how bizarre your mindset is. The Nazis were led by vicious, hateful sociopaths -- the world regards their legacy with horror and disgust. Your baloney is just as popular, and deservedly so.

Saggy and Doggy are very coy about the reason for their antisemitism.
 
Saggy is it your opinion that it is a good thing that the holocaust didn't happen, or a bad thing that it didn't happen?

Saggy... I'm going to try this one more time. A lot of us want you to answer kerikiwi's question. So how about you do so.

If you aren't going to, then can you at least have the guts to say that you're afraid to answer the question?
 
I don't know why you guys hate the Jews, and I don't care, but you can't parlay your lapse of sanity into an argument simply by repeating it over and over..

See the whole thing unravels when it is realised how many non Jews were killed. Even if you hate the Jews, think the Nazis were right to fend of an enemy of the state, decide that the Jews are so sub human they should have been removed.....or their removal faked

It doesnt explain the other 5 million vicitims, who were not Jewish
 
See the whole thing unravels when it is realised how many non Jews were killed. Even if you hate the Jews, think the Nazis were right to fend of an enemy of the state, decide that the Jews are so sub human they should have been removed.....or their removal faked

It doesnt explain the other 5 million vicitims, who were not Jewish
It's not about making the Nazis look like good guys. It's about making the Jews look like bad guys. That's why I think the other victims don't matter to them.
 
It's not about making the Nazis look like good guys. It's about making the Jews look like bad guys. That's why I think the other victims don't matter to them.
Right, if, as Saggy says pretty much up front, the Jews are all liars and schemers for evil, then their interest in making the poor misunderstood Nazis look bad is abundantly served by adding a few million non-jews to their scurrilous fabrication. After all, the starting assumption through which all other information is filtered is the rabid and irrational hatred of Jews. A holocaust denier like Saggy is as hobbled by this as surely as a young earth creationist by his starting assumption. No evidence, regardless of its strength, can be allowed to contradict it.
 
Right, if, as Saggy says pretty much up front, the Jews are all liars and schemers for evil, then their interest in making the poor misunderstood Nazis look bad is abundantly served by adding a few million non-jews to their scurrilous fabrication.
Well, again I'd say that it's not about the Nazis, it's about the Jews. The deniers have quite the fetish for the Global Zionist Conspiracy, which of course is baloney. This paranoid fantasy along with confirmation bias generates a feedback loop that seems to just make them nuttier and nuttier. They like to pretend that they're talking about this or that detail of evidence, but this is what it's all about: the Jews have pulled a fast one. Somehow they got even more rich and powerful by faking the Holocaust.

After all, the starting assumption through which all other information is filtered is the rabid and irrational hatred of Jews.
Yes, it seems to me that pure, fear-driven bigotry is the beginning and the end of Holocaust denial. It's anti-semitism filtered through hysteria and very often a good dollop of personality disorder. Despite whatever smoke they blow, there's nothing else to it.

A holocaust denier like Saggy is as hobbled by this as surely as a young earth creationist by his starting assumption. No evidence, regardless of its strength, can be allowed to contradict it.

The creationists seem similar because anti-science smells as bad as anti-history. Both are an attack on objectivity. And you're right: once they get into that stance they generally won't budge.
 
Well, again I'd say that it's not about the Nazis, it's about the Jews. The deniers have quite the fetish for the Global Zionist Conspiracy, which of course is baloney. This paranoid fantasy along with confirmation bias generates a feedback loop that seems to just make them nuttier and nuttier. They like to pretend that they're talking about this or that detail of evidence, but this is what it's all about: the Jews have pulled a fast one. Somehow they got even more rich and powerful by faking the Holocaust.

Why do you think the holocaust story requires a Jewish conspiracy? How does this conspiracy work? Do you think that people believe the Jews have made up all those photos and all those testimonies and all the trials, etc out of nothing? If you're Jewish, it's awfully arrogant for you to think that the world believes you guys are that powerful.

This whole conspiracy routine is a strawman and a way for you to avoid the facts. I understand your need to have a Jewish conspiracy at the root of holocaust revisionism. It's much easier to dismiss that way.

Here's your assignment: Tell me how holocaust revisionism requires a conspiracy. Tell me how this conspiracy works, who is in on it. when it started, etc. And tell me why it was done. Why did the conspirators choose to fabricate six million deaths and a master plan and gas chambers? Why not ten million deaths? Why didn't it happen between 1920 and 1925? Why didn't it use laser beams instead of gas chambers?

Do this and you'll see how your conspiracy theory falls apart. You might even see how the traditional holocaust story requires nothing more than normal wartime anti-enemy propaganda, lying about your political enemies and explaining ordinary happenings as something sinister.

And, btw, holocaust revisionism isn't about the Jews. It has nothing to do with the Jews. Get off your self-importance kick.
 
Why do you think the holocaust story requires a Jewish conspiracy? How does this conspiracy work? Do you think that people believe the Jews have made up all those photos and all those testimonies and all the trials, etc out of nothing? If you're Jewish, it's awfully arrogant for you to think that the world believes you guys are that powerful.

This whole conspiracy routine is a strawman and a way for you to avoid the facts. I understand your need to have a Jewish conspiracy at the root of holocaust revisionism. It's much easier to dismiss that way.

Here's your assignment: Tell me how holocaust revisionism requires a conspiracy. Tell me how this conspiracy works, who is in on it. when it started, etc. And tell me why it was done. Why did the conspirators choose to fabricate six million deaths and a master plan and gas chambers? Why not ten million deaths? Why didn't it happen between 1920 and 1925? Why didn't it use laser beams instead of gas chambers?

Do this and you'll see how your conspiracy theory falls apart. You might even see how the traditional holocaust story requires nothing more than normal wartime anti-enemy propaganda, lying about your political enemies and explaining ordinary happenings as something sinister.

And, btw, holocaust revisionism isn't about the Jews. It has nothing to do with the Jews. Get off your self-importance kick.

The basic proof of the Holocaust has since 1945 been regarded as the statements of German eyewitnesses and the evidence of captured German documents.

The traditional Holocaust denier explanation for these inconvenient pieces of evidence is to allege a massive campaign of coercion/torture and systematic forgery of documents en masse.

If you say that 'revisionism' hasn't alleged torture and forgery then you're flat-out lying. Only the identity of the 'hoaxers' changes - for the more rabid nutzis, it is axiomatically Them, the Jooz, and for the slightly more sophisticated, we get a throwback to 1952 and McCarthyism - it's the Reds - coupled with conspiranoid insinuations against British and US agencies.

Yeah, yeah, there are a few nutters who seem to think it was all some kind of 'hystory' that grew organically out of rumours, but even Crowell - the chief exponent of the 'hystory' nonsense - starts alleging coercion and forgery after 1945. As does Mattogno.

The simple fact is that unless you are going to claim hoax-by-telepathy, different sources - witnesses and documents - which ended up on either side of the Iron Curtain report on the same micro-details that were not publicised at the end of the war. That's why an SS captain and a Polish Sonderkommando can simultaneously identify the first gas chambers at Birkenau as the 'Bunkers' immediately after the end of the war, using a term that had nowhere appeared in any previous report. Since the SS captain actually left Auschwitz in August 1943, we can hopefully rule out a conspiracy between Aumeier and Dragon to repeat the same claim.

But if you allege - as Mattogno idiotically does - that "the Poles" got on the phone to "the British" and passed on this insignificant little matter of nomenclature, then you've got a conspiracy. End of story.

We can repeat this endlessly for virtually every aspect of the Holocaust, and from multiple provenances, including introducing the 1944 intelligence reports of neutral nations like Switzerland which give chapter and verse on the Einsatzgruppen, gas vans and Auschwitz, conveying specific details that were not publicised until after the war, like who was involved in the evolution of gas vans (Artur Nebe, the head of the Kripo).

So it's either conspiracy, or the evidence matches, in which case bye-bye revisionism.
 
A bit off topic, but reading this thread put me in mind of these lines from Charles Simic:

Sausage-makers of History,
The bloody kind,
You all hail from a village
Where the dog barking at the moon
Is the only poet.


Ok, back to the well poisoning and poo flinging.
 
Why do you think the holocaust story requires a Jewish conspiracy?
Huh? I think the Holocaust is established historical fact. I'm sure that you just phrased that oddly.

How does this conspiracy work? Do you think that people believe the Jews have made up all those photos and all those testimonies and all the trials, etc out of nothing? If you're Jewish, it's awfully arrogant for you to think that the world believes you guys are that powerful.
Yes, I do think that some people believe that evidence for the Holocaust was exaggerated if not fabricated by some Zionist Conspiracy that in fact exists only in their fevered imaginations. Put another way, I doubt that one can deny the facts of the Holocaust without positing a conspiracy, and these conspirators are pretty much guaranteed to be Jews.

This whole conspiracy routine is a strawman and a way for you to avoid the facts. I understand your need to have a Jewish conspiracy at the root of holocaust revisionism. It's much easier to dismiss that way.
It looks like we're here in a "Conspiracy Theories" forum discussing a conspiracy that you want to disown. Suit yourself. We can agree that there was never a Zionist Conspiracy that impinged in any way upon the established historical details of the Holocaust.

Here's your assignment: Tell me how holocaust revisionism requires a conspiracy. Tell me how this conspiracy works, who is in on it. when it started, etc. And tell me why it was done. Why did the conspirators choose to fabricate six million deaths and a master plan and gas chambers? Why not ten million deaths? Why didn't it happen between 1920 and 1925? Why didn't it use laser beams instead of gas chambers?
Hey, I'm quite happy to agree that there's no Zionist Conspiracy. I could almost do a cartwheel, though I'm too old for that. Perhaps we can also agree that the world would be a better place if nothing remotely like the hideous brutality of the Nazi's attempted genocide of the Jews ever took place again?

Do this and you'll see how your conspiracy theory falls apart. You might even see how the traditional holocaust story requires nothing more than normal wartime anti-enemy propaganda, lying about your political enemies and explaining ordinary happenings as something sinister.
Ah, there's the other shoe. The Holocaust was overrated. Nothing to do with the Jews at all. A bit of fun went wrong. Wartime, you know. Bit of drama. Bit of schnapps. Things got silly. Blah blah blah.

I was hoping that you had more guts than that, but it looks like you think that you can sell the Nazis as good old boys who were somehow victimized by failing to rape the world. Really? If you think that you can stealth in and spread doubt about the Holocaust without seeming like a monster, you are wrong.

The actions of the Nazis will be neither forgiven nor forgotten. You might as well accept that.
 
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Why do you think the holocaust story requires a Jewish conspiracy?

The conspiracy is explicit and well documented, you don't have to wonder about it at all.

It began during WW I, and there is a book that documents it, "The First Holohoax, Jewish Fund Raising Campaigns with Holocaust Claims During World War One", it is documented with reprints of articles from the NYT and other Jewish press. The motive for the hoax was always Zionism.

The same people that ran the hoax during WW I were around and in or close to high positions in the FDR administration. To see the play by play, with names, read 'Hoax of the Twentieth Century' by Arthur Butz. The short story is the H. Morgenthau headed the War Refugee Board that assumed responsibility for US policy with regard to refugee policy, Nuremberg, and related matters. It created the hoax, that is, it published material from the Jewish World Congress and gave it the authority of the US govt. It oversaw the Nuremberg trials that gave the hoax the force of law. There is no mystery here. Here's a little factoid .... the US WRB rep in charge of the trials held by the US after the IMT went on to be the commanding general in the Israeli army, and was killed while serving in that capacity (Mickey somebody).

Why the 'gas chamber' hoax? Circumstance, the Nazis took stringent, though unsuccessful, measures to combat typhus, including shaved heads, frequent showers, and delousing clothing by fumigation in special rooms using a commercial insecticide, Zyklon, as was done all over Europe. This was the source for the 'homicidal gas chamber' hoax.

The conspiracy involves every Jew, actively or passively, save David Cole (....force of habit), and many goyim. Look at the pathetic Zionists who post on this forum. They ain't Irish.

The holohoax is preposterous and transparent, once the blinders are off. The strongest argument for it, that academia accepts it almost to the last professor, is, turned on its head, a measure of how deeply the hoax is embedded in the power structure controlling the US, Russian, and European governments.
 
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Dogzilla said:
Why do you think the holocaust story requires a Jewish conspiracy?
The conspiracy is explicit and well documented, you don't have to wonder about it at all.
Yay! Kook fight!

You tell that milquetoast revisionist what's what. You guys can't afford to get soft.
 
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