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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I think the best course now that this topic is unmoderated is to respect each poster as an individual entitled to an opinion and having the option to either respond or not to other posters.


I agree.

The reason I asked quadraginta if he wanted to elaborate was simply to let him know the door was open. It wasn't because I felt he should offer any substantiation or explanation.
 
confession

tsig,

It was a confession because if Amanda did what she said (which was not to help Meredith) she was guilty of a crime. It had the practical effect of being a confession because she was incarcerated (without being charged for almost a year). Amanda herself called it a confession (in quotes), FWIW.

One of the errors in the 1:45 AM statement is that she went out at 8:30 (we know that this is false because of Ms. Popovic). Why would Amanda lie about that?

I agree with Matthew Best. You did not really answer the question. Of course, that is your prerogative.
 
How do you explain the fact that the characteristics of Amanda's "confession" (vagueness, doubts about its authenticity, obvious errors of fact, conformity with police theories at the time, later retraction) match with those of an internalised false confession, a well-recognised and objectively documented psychological phenomenon? There is no evidence Amanda knew enough about such false confessions to fake one so convincingly, and indeed if she knew enough to fake one she would almost certainly know that such confessions often lead to the confessor being convicted. If it is highly implausible that she faked an internalised false confession, the only alternative was that this was a real internalised false


It wasn't a confession it was an accusation. It is dishonest to keep calling it a confession.

It wasn't vague she clearly accused Patrick

How does Kevin know what the police theories where at the time?

The errors of fact are where Amanda was lying.

The last sentence sets up a false dichotomy.



The logical fallacy of false dilemma (also called false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy) involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are other options.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Thank your for the response.

I am happy to call it whatever you like, however if her contested statement were true she was a bystander who lied to police to cover up the murder, and so she was confessing to wrongdoing to that extent at the very least. Regardless this is a purely semantic dispute. We could call it a giraffe instead and it would make no difference.

Her statement was indeed "vague", as is typical for internalised false confessions, expressing doubt about whether she actually remembered what she was recounting. Her subsequent retraction is also perfectly consistent with an internalised false confession.

She did clearly accuse Patrick, however since the police had told her he committed the crime this too is perfectly consistent with an internalised false confession.

I do not believe you can know for certain that Amanda was lying, as opposed to being the victim of an internalised false confession.

You can certainly accuse me of presenting a false dichotomy, however you have not answered the question: How can Amanda's accusation/confession have all the characteristics of an internalised false confession yet be faked, if Amanda did not know what an internalised false confession was?

You have advanced semantic complaints, but you have not actually answered the question. If you feel that the whole question is a false dichotomy, feel free to just answer the part I reproduced in the previous paragraph, which I will cut and paste again for your convenience:

How can Amanda's accusation/confession have all the characteristics of an internalised false confession yet be faked, if Amanda did not know what an internalised false confession was?
 
It wasn't a confession it was an accusation. It is dishonest to keep calling it a confession.

Yes, tsig is correct. I have to watch when I post myself and try and force myself not to use the word confession. The guilters would have you believe it was a confession. They constantly throw out the word confession to get people to believe that knox confessed to the crime. In reality its a FALSE WITNESS STATEMENT. Amanda confessed to nothing in the statement. She IMAGINED a scenario at the request of the interragotors that made Patrick the killer. Then hours later retracted her witness statement. If someone gave a witness statement like that in any place other than Perugia, 5 seconds later they would have been offering them immunity or putting them in a safe house to testify against the individual. Its not Amanda's fault Patrick was arrested. Its the polices. She retracted it fairly quickly and the police chose to ignore the retraction. The police even chose to ignore Patricks alibi until they where forced to release him.
You have to ask yourself what crime did Knox confess to doing? Once Patrick is proved to not be the person that killed Meredith, then what in her statement is she confessing to. You could say she is guilty of giving a false statement to police. Yet that statement was quickly retracted. It was retracted before police could even investigate its details. Though they did choose to investigate it after it was retracted. Thats not Amanda's fault. They already suspected Patrick anyway. They were investigating him already. The only thing they could do with that statement is charge her with slander. Of course IMO even the slander conviction will get overturned because of how quickly amanda retracted it and the fact that she was being interrogated and refused an attorney.
 
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(msg #5039, p126)

It wasn't a confession it was an accusation.

This is a false distinction that has been made before here (by Fiona, if not by others). The techniques used by the police are equally effective at obtaining false accusations or false confessions to suit their own agenda.

A few weeks ago an Iranian woman, Sakinah Mohammedi Ashtiani, made a much-publicised "confession" on TV. Few people in the UK or US are going to doubt that she was coerced into making the confession, simply because people do not make such broadcasts voluntarily.

Similarly, Kevin's point (AIUI) is that Amanda's statements on the night of 5-6 November can be confidently recognised as an internalised false confession (IFC) obtained by coercion, because these kind of statements are never made voluntarily and spontaneously.

It is dishonest to keep calling it a confession.

Sorry, no. The dishonesty is to continue to make the false distinction.

It wasn't vague she clearly accused Patrick

Again, untrue. The statement of Amanda's in the public domain states "I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me than what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house," and then "In these flashbacks that I'm having, I see Patrik as the murderer." This cannot be described as anything but "vague".[/quote]

The errors of fact are where Amanda was lying.

You don't know this. Unless you can address how they differ from the known characteristics of IFCs, then your point is not an adequate response.

The last sentence sets up a false dichotomy.

Again wrong. Kevin's point is that this was either a faked IFC, or a genuine one. In order to make this a false dichotomy, you have to argue that it was not an IFC at all. You have not even begun to do so.
 
Yes, I hoped Stilicho's response might be a bit more in-depth than "nobody in their right mind thinks that Meredith died "long before 23:30". Well that's convinced me, then...

He mentions a witness corroborating Curatolo being in the square (though I don't see how that corroborates what Curatolo saw. Kokomani knew about the break-down truck so he was obviously there too, but the Court still decided he was delusional). Is this the witness he's talking about?

In relation to Ceccarelli, with regard to Curatolo's presence in the area of Piazza Grimana on 2 November 2007, on page 73 the sentencing report reads: “Alessia Ceccarelli therefore reported knowing Curatolo, and specified that in this period he was on the bench next to the newsstand. She added that on 2 November 2007 she opened the newsstand and Curatolo was there (declarations of Alessi Ceccarelli hearing 23.6.2009, pages 122 and 126)”.

Such a statement is isolated from context, whilst totally ignoring the fact that, as Ceccarelli stated, the opening hours of the newsstand were 6.40 in the morning to 19.00 at night.

Well, Curatolo reported having spent the night between 1 and 2 November in the park and waking up around 8.30-9.00, going to get a cappuccino at the bar and then placing himself on the bench in Piazza Grimana (hearing 28.03.2009, p. 6).

And so it is clear that the statements of Ceccarelli, far from confirming Curatolo’s claims, emphatically refute them. And in fact, they confirm that the witness has clearly fallen into error.

So Ceccarelli reported seeing Curatolo in the square at a time when he himself says he wasn't there (p92/93 of Raffaele's appeal). That's not exactly "corroborating" his testimony...
 
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What exactly is the prosecutions "list" they accept as proof for Merediths TOD?

You can read the "reasoning" for yourself on pages 177-179 of the Massei report translation PDF on the PMF site.

Chris C's summary is honestly not all that far off the truth.

Massei starts by acknowledging Dr Lalli's evidence that if indeed all of Meredith's 18:00-18:30 meal was still in her stomach you would expect gastric emptying to have begun by 22:00 at the very latest. (On this point Lalli seems to have been a little out of step with the latest papers, you might say, which all indicate a shorter t(lag), but even so Lalli's view is sufficient to break the prosecution case).

Then he seizes on Dr Lalli's qualification that such measurements are imprecise to a degree, and takes that to mean that it's absolutely open slather and there's no reason the time of death can't be 23:30. This is once again akin to hearing that a police officer's radar gun has a margin of error of 5kph, and jumping to the conclusion that a reading of 100kph could really mean a speed of 30kph.

Perhaps realising this is a bit thin, Massei then references the testimony of Professor Ronchi who (incorrectly, as it turns out) asserted that Dr Lalli had not tied off the bowel as is normal in an autopsy, and floated the idea that the reason there was absolutely no food in the upper bowel was because Dr Lalli was so utterly incompetent that he had squeezed all the food in Meredith's upper bowel all the way down to the very bottom of her bowel accidentally while trying to examine it. Since the autopsy video apparently clearly shows Dr Lalli tying off the bowel properly, we can dismiss this idea.

Anyway, having thus magically handwaved away the lack of food in the duodenum, Ronchi was able to switch from establishing time of death based on when stomach emptying begins (or t(lag) in shorthand), to trying to establish it based on when it finishes. This, oddly enough, is exactly the manoeuvre several guilters right here have tried, except that lacking Ronchi's expertise they didn't realise that they needed to explain away the lack of food in the duodenum.

Then they quote Professor Cingolani who said that estimating time of death by stomach contents can be off by more than twelve hours. In this Massei is almost certainly taking Cingolani wildly out of context, because t(lag) simply does not vary by twelve hours either way. Most likely Cingolani was speaking more generally about trying to estimate time of death based on the degree to which a digested meal had progressed through the bowels, and Massei took him out of context as it suited him.

Then he lastly adds that maybe Meredith had a sip of wine and a mushroom when she got home, and that this adds even more uncertainty.

Then he concludes that Meredith thus could have died at absolutely any old time and continues merrily on his way. That's it.

There is absolutely nothing in Massei's reasoning to refute the argument that if Dr Lalli tied off Meredith's bowel correctly during the autopsy, then it follows that Meredith died before 22:00 at the very latest. Dr Lalli tied her bowel off correctly. Therefore she died before 22:00. Game over for the prosecution theory.
 
How do you explain the fact that the characteristics of Amanda's "confession" (vagueness, doubts about its authenticity, obvious errors of fact, conformity with police theories at the time, later retraction) match with those of an internalised false confession, a well-recognised and objectively documented psychological phenomenon? There is no evidence Amanda knew enough about such false confessions to fake one so convincingly, and indeed if she knew enough to fake one she would almost certainly know that such confessions often lead to the confessor being convicted. If it is highly implausible that she faked an internalised false confession, the only alternative was that this was a real internalised false


It wasn't a confession it was an accusation. It is dishonest to keep calling it a confession.

It wasn't vague she clearly accused Patrick

How does Kevin know what the police theories where at the time?


The errors of fact are where Amanda was lying.

The last sentence sets up a false dichotomy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma


We all know what the police theories were at the time, because the police announced them on November 6th, the same day they arrested Amanda and Patrick, and the day after they arrested Raffaele.

In a brief press conference, the Perugia police chief Arturo de Felice said the arrests followed intensive detective work since Miss Kercher, of Coulsdon, Surrey, was found dead in her apartment on Friday. "All three participated in this crime. The motive was sexual and the victim rebelled," he said, adding: "The motive appears to have been a sexual attack. However, Miss Kercher was the victim and that's all. She was morally innocent of what occurred."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ans-murder-as-two-others-are-held-399287.html

The police had prepared themselves in advance to claim that all three defendants participated in the crime, even though they had no evidence of that scenario, either before OR after the interrogations.

It doesn't really matter what the specific theories were. Amanda and Raffaele conformed to police expectations during their interrogations simply by temporarily agreeing that their alibis might be open to question.
 
I am having a hard time understanding something. I have read that Sefanoni's boss (Dr. Renato Biondi) was a consultant for the prosecution. Did the court ever even consider that there may be a conflict of interest here? My understanding is the lab that did the testing is a police lab and I would assume they are paid by the state much as would be a regular police officer. It would seem to me to be a simple ethics issue that the head of the DNA unit would also not be a prosecution consultant in a case where that unit is in charge of the testing. Now I am also assuming that the prosecution costs are covered by the state so if Biondi was paid for his consultant work he was paid by the same folks that are also paying his salary.
 
Mary - just to add on to your point and quote :
(i still can't post links - but find the source quote here)
From The Mirror on Nov 8, 2007 "Judge considers ruling on Meredith suspects"
Police chief Arturo De Felice said: "Initially the American gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in. They all participated but had different roles"

Short of the suspiciously non-existent recording of the "questioning", I don't what more evidence you need than directly from the police's mouth that they fed their own story to Amanda to regurgitate.

Matteini's statement that they had to arrest her before her mother arrived is pretty damning as well - it says to me that they had to force her to sign something that could justify her arrest.

It all indicates to me that they really believed she had something to do with the murder. I believe they were all loosely working together with good intentions and over time no one had the courage to raise a flag and say... "hmmm, why isn't anything solid supporting this..." Perhaps one could attribute it to same sort of failure attributed to the inability to see the forthcoming bombing of Pearl Harbor: groupthink.
 
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Yes, I hoped Stilicho's response might be a bit more in-depth than "nobody in their right mind thinks that Meredith died "long before 23:30". Well that's convinced me, then...

He mentions a witness corroborating Curatolo being in the square (though I don't see how that corroborates what Curatolo saw. Kokomani knew about the break-down truck so he was obviously there too, but the Court still decided he was delusional). Is this the witness he's talking about?



So Ceccarelli reported seeing Curatolo in the square at a time when he himself says he wasn't there (p92/93 of Raffaele's appeal). That's not exactly "corroborating" his testimony...

Similar problems with Nara's testimony. The memory of the night before is believed by the court and yet the newer memories of the next morning that are in error are ignored. The court explains it this way: “if this scream did not happen and Capezzali did not hear it, we do not see the reason why she would have spoken about it” (p. 89 sentenza). Nara spoke about something that did not happen the very next morning and it appears Curatolo did as well.
 
Kevin, I tend to think the last question on your list is the most telling. It is definitely the point that made the penny drop for me two and a half years ago. Amanda implicated herself and Lumumba, but she didn't implicate Raffaele, nor did she say anything about group sex, so how is it that on Nov. 6, the police were able to tell the world that all three killed Meredith because she refused to participate in group sex?

It was pure speculation, but once it was in the headlines on two continents, their reputations were at stake.
 
Mary - just to add on to your point and quote :
(i still can't post links - but find the source quote here)
From The Mirror on Nov 8, 2007 "Judge considers ruling on Meredith suspects"
Police chief Arturo De Felice said: "Initially the American gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in. They all participated but had different roles"

Short of the suspiciously non-existent recording of the "questioning", I don't what more evidence you need than directly from the police's mouth that they fed their own story to Amanda to regurgitate.

Matteini's statement that they had to arrest her before her mother arrived is pretty damning as well - it says to me that they had to force her to sign something that could justify her arrest.

It all indicates to me that they really believed she had something to do with the murder. I believe they were all loosely working together with good intentions and over time no one had the courage to raise a flag and say... "hmmm, why isn't anything solid supporting this..." Perhaps one could attribute it to same sort of failure attributed to the inability to see the forthcoming bombing of Pearl Harbor: groupthink.

I disagree with the Pearl Harbor statement.
 
(msg #5056)

Mary - just to add on to your point and quote :
(i still can't post links - but find the source quote here)
From The Mirror on Nov 8, 2007 "Judge considers ruling on Meredith suspects"
Police chief Arturo De Felice said: "Initially the American gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in. They all participated but had different roles"

Short of the suspiciously non-existent recording of the "questioning", I don't what more evidence you need than directly from the police's mouth that they fed their own story to Amanda to regurgitate.

The link is http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2007/11/08/judge-considers-ruling-on-meredith-suspects-115875-20079106/.

The highlighting in your message didn't come up as I think you intended. The second phrase:

She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct ...

is the crucial one that indicates that the accusation against Lumumba originated from the police, not from Amanda.

It all indicates to me that they really believed she had something to do with the murder. I believe they were all loosely working together with good intentions and over time no one had the courage to raise a flag and say... "hmmm, why isn't anything solid supporting this..." Perhaps one could attribute it to same sort of failure attributed to the inability to see the forthcoming bombing of Pearl Harbor: groupthink.

That's the generous interpretation. Maybe individual police officers were led to believe that the crime had been solved honestly, but it's clear that the conclusions that the alleged killers were Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick were conjured out of thin air before November 6.
 
Kevin, I tend to think the last question on your list is the most telling. It is definitely the point that made the penny drop for me two and a half years ago. Amanda implicated herself and Lumumba, but she didn't implicate Raffaele, nor did she say anything about group sex, so how is it that on Nov. 6, the police were able to tell the world that all three killed Meredith because she refused to participate in group sex?

It was pure speculation, but once it was in the headlines on two continents, their reputations were at stake.


It's truly astonishing they were able to incarcerate Raffaele in the first place, much less keep him in stir until it suddenly occurred to them six weeks down the line that they didn't have any forensics on him. It's as if they said, "Here, you wait in jail until we figure out some way to justify your arrest."
 
That's the generous interpretation. Maybe individual police officers were led to believe that the crime had been solved honestly, but it's clear that the conclusions that the alleged killers were Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick were conjured out of thin air before November 6.

If only the rest of the investigation is where a “normal” investigation would “normally” start in a “normal” investigation.
 
Mary - just to add on to your point and quote :
(i still can't post links - but find the source quote here)
From The Mirror on Nov 8, 2007 "Judge considers ruling on Meredith suspects"
Police chief Arturo De Felice said: "Initially the American gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in. They all participated but had different roles"

Short of the suspiciously non-existent recording of the "questioning", I don't what more evidence you need than directly from the police's mouth that they fed their own story to Amanda to regurgitate.


This is an essential point, ForTruth. Thanks for posting it.
 
Kevin, I tend to think the last question on your list is the most telling. It is definitely the point that made the penny drop for me two and a half years ago. Amanda implicated herself and Lumumba, but she didn't implicate Raffaele, nor did she say anything about group sex, so how is it that on Nov. 6, the police were able to tell the world that all three killed Meredith because she refused to participate in group sex?

It was pure speculation, but once it was in the headlines on two continents, their reputations were at stake.

It's indeed a problem for people who want to believe the prosecution case. It would all hang together much, much better if Mignini had started off convinced that a single someone broke the window with a rock, climbed in, murdered Meredith and left by the front door, and then Mignini changed his tune to believing in a triple murder when the double DNA knife and the bra clasp DNA evidence came in.

However a persistent pattern in this case is the prosecution and police fixing a crazy theory based on no proper evidence and then finding evidence for it.

They decide it was an absolutely unprecedented three-way sex killing committed by a group of relative strangers, based on absolutely no evidence at all, and then evidence comes through to support this theory.

They decide that Patrick did it, based on no decent evidence whatsoever, and then they get a coerced witness statement implicating Patrick.

They get an internalised false confession involving a scream, which is no evidence at all, and then witnesses are found who say they heard a scream.

It stretches credulity past the breaking point that these people leaped to crazy conclusion after crazy conclusion and then were miraculously proven right every single time... except of course when Patrick turned out to have had a cast-iron alibi, which was a fair-sized egg in the face for them. However it didn't stop them charging right along with the same kind of leaps of illogic afterwards, or even shake their belief in Amanda's false witness statement.

It's a case of what did they know, and when did they know it. When you look at what they knew, and when they made their claims, it's obvious they were making claims the evidence couldn't support right from the start.

Edited for rule 11. Other forums are not the topic of discussion.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode
 
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It's truly astonishing they were able to incarcerate Raffaele in the first place, much less keep him in stir until it suddenly occurred to them six weeks down the line that they didn't have any forensics on him. It's as if they said, "Here, you wait in jail until we figure out some way to justify your arrest."

Initially they said Guede's shoe prints were Raffaele's. After extensive research proved the prints weren't compatible with Raffaele's shoes, the bra fastener came along.
 
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