All Communists are dead-beats

[quadraginta]

It was the 1850's. Governments didn't give a **** about anybody back then. That's just the way people thought.

So you can explain why even though all of the rest of Europe suffered from the same potato blight at the same time, in general much more severely, the cumulative total of deaths attributed to the that blight in all the rest of Europe combined was only a small fraction of the ones in Ireland alone.

Those countries all had governments too, you know.

There are very specific reasons why Ireland suffered so disastrously. The word "profit" plays a part in those reasons. There was more than enough food grown in Ireland to sustain the people who lived there. There were even more than enough potatoes.

What do you suppose was done with that food?

Can you say "capitalism"?

 

[bit_pattern]

Think I'm being too harsh on communism? Should I shave off 50 million deaths due to circumstances beyond their control?

Well, that's what you're asking everybody else to do in relation to deaths caused by capitalism.

But how about you just answer the question?

 

[quadraginta]

if the USSR and China were never Communist countries, why then do so-called Communists constantly defend them?

Maybe for the same reason they're called "Communist countries", because the term lacks any precision in common usage and is employed more as a pejorative than a true descriptor.

I think we've come full circle, now.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

People moving large amounts of capital is essentially what permits an average Joe to get a car loan, a rising entrepreneur to hire staff and a multinational corporation to build a massive factory. The current economy, and most of it's benefits, would be completely impossible if there weren't people spending all their time directing the flows of capital.

There is an argument to be made that these people are compensated too much, but to claim they produce no labor is pretty much equal to saying a doctor or a teacher produce nothing. They all produce a service and receive a compensation. The only difference is that while a doctor receives compensation as a salary, people juggling stocks simply shave a bit off the flows of money as they rush by.

I agree, it's a "necessary evil" in the current system, a sort of way to balance the scales of budgets, so to say. I've heard of some good ideas to reduce the preposterous amounts of money that can be made from it, such as taxing each individual transaction of stocks, obligations, etc.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

What if the communism that actually existed was a natural consequence of trying to put a mad idea into practice?

That's almost true, I'd say. I think that attempting to put a Marxist system into practice will inevitably end in an inefficient and corrupt society, but I genuinely can see absolutely no reason that it would end in gulags and mass killings because there is nothing in Communist literature about repressing or killing anyone. I'd say that was more a natural consequence of the fact that Lenin wanted to reshape Communism and was inefficient, whereas Stalin was a brutal psychopath with severe paranoia.

Do you have quotes with relevant context? I find it hard to believe communist butchers lamented the fact that society needed them to exist.

That presupposes anyone after Lenin actually wanted anything vaguely Communist, of course, rather than paying lip-service to it.

 

[Thunder]

Maybe for the same reason they're called "Communist countries", because the term lacks any precision in common usage and is employed more as a pejorative than a true descriptor.

I think we've come full circle, now.

ah...so they defend China, Vietnam, North Korea, and the USSR, not because they were actually Communist, but to be the Devil's Advocate?

interesting.

 

[Mirrorglass]

ah...so they defend China, Vietnam, North Korea, and the USSR, not because they were actually Communist, but to be the Devil's Advocate?

interesting.

Who exactly are 'they'? That might help to answer your question more precisely.

But if I'm reading this conversation correctly, the key was in your question: "Why do so-called communists defend the Soviet Union, China etc."

The point is that the people who defend those countries usually aren't actual communists. However, they are called communists as an insult.

Thus, using these people as your source of knowledge about the communist mindset is about as smart as asking little Timmy on the playground about the rights of sexual minorities because Tommy called him gay.

 

[Thunder]

But if I'm reading this conversation correctly, the key was in your question: "Why do so-called communists defend the Soviet Union, China etc."

The point is that the people who defend those countries usually aren't actual communists. However, they are called communists as an insult.
.

I remember in college, seeing the "Spartacist League" and the Revolutionary Communist Party folks, defending China.

 

[Cleon]

I remember in college, seeing the "Spartacist League" and the Revolutionary Communist Party folks, defending China.

The RCP is avowedly Maoist, but has had no nice things to say about China since the Gang of Four was ousted following Mao's death.

The Spartacist League is a small Trotskist sect; they're really not fans of the Chinese government, and never have been.

 

[Kotatsu]

I remember in college, seeing the "Spartacist League" and the Revolutionary Communist Party folks, defending China.

I think it is a bit unfair not to call the people Thunder refer to communists. I have met plenty of self-identified communists who would say something along the lines of "Well, maybe Stalin killed a few millions, but at least [insert something vaguely positive]". The same goes for China. Just like any movement, there are idiots among communists as well, and at least here there were plenty of people who self-identified as communists (1) who trusted the Soviet propaganda blindly. I even have CDs by self-identified communist bands who praise Ho Chi Minh, Mao, and Stalin.

There are fewer people like this today, granted, but they do still exist. Just like how there are still Holocaust-deniers.

---
(1) I only know this from hearsay, as I wasn't born until much later...

 

[Mirrorglass]

I remember in college, seeing the "Spartacist League" and the Revolutionary Communist Party folks, defending China.

Well, did they say China was the perfect communist country? Or did they say it had taken some right steps towards it? Or that it wasn't as horrible as people in America often say?

In any case, it's hard to know much when the source is so vague. Maybe they just called themselves communist because it was edgy. Maybe they had an unique take on communism. Maybe they considered Maoism to be the ultimate form of communism. Maybe they didn't really know what was going on in China.

 

[Thunder]

Well, did they say China was the perfect communist country? Or did they say it had taken some right steps towards it? Or that it wasn't as horrible as people in America often say?
.

the statement was "we will always defend countries who are attacked by America and her imperial interests/allies".

 

[Mirrorglass]

the statement was "we will always defend countries who are attacked by America and her imperial interests/allies".

Well, that doesn't really have anything at all to do with whether or not China is communist, then.

 

[Giz]

That's almost true, I'd say. I think that attempting to put a Marxist system into practice will inevitably end in an inefficient and corrupt society, but I genuinely can see absolutely no reason that it would end in gulags and mass killings because there is nothing in Communist literature about repressing or killing anyone. I'd say that was more a natural consequence of the fact that Lenin wanted to reshape Communism and was inefficient, whereas Stalin was a brutal psychopath with severe paranoia.




That presupposes anyone after Lenin actually wanted anything vaguely Communist, of course, rather than paying lip-service to it.

The gulags and killings probably come about because there has been no toleration of dissent in any of the "proto-marxist" states. (Not 100% sure what Marx said about this - or if he thought through the process in enough detail but Lenin definately viewed all dissent/criticism as illegitimate and something that needed to be crushed).

Any form of government that doesn't allow peaceful expression of dissent (i.e. elections) will be forced to resort to repression/gulags etc in order to hang on to power.

 

[Virus]

Can you say "capitalism"?

Mercantilism.

 

[quadraginta]

Can you say "capitalism"?

Mercantilism.

I'm going to have to take that as a "No.".

I suspect that term may not mean quite what you think it means. Would you like to explain what made mid-nineteenth century England a mercantile economy, and exactly how it differed from a capitalist one?

 

[dirtywick]

we have more then a few here in NYC.

Don't think you can be a communist in NYC. Sure, you can think it's a good idea and call yourself a communist, but at the end of the day you're going to work, paying your bills, and shopping like everyone else.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

The gulags and killings probably come about because there has been no toleration of dissent in any of the "proto-marxist" states. (Not 100% sure what Marx said about this - or if he thought through the process in enough detail but Lenin definately viewed all dissent/criticism as illegitimate and something that needed to be crushed).

Any form of government that doesn't allow peaceful expression of dissent (i.e. elections) will be forced to resort to repression/gulags etc in order to hang on to power.

Oh, for once I quite agree. Lenin wasn't QUITE that bad but he certainly had his fair share of political enemies rubbed out. Of course, the main reason for this was that there were two separate Communist revolutions at the same time in Russia, so it would have been hard for him not to fight against the others. I'm not excusing him, I'm merely stating it wasn't like he just decided on a whim to crush all dissenters. That was Stalin.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

no communist would defend China, its a capitalist eldorado.

I think the ElDorado was a Cadillac.

 

[Region Rat]

I think the ElDorado was a Cadillac.

El Dorado was a John Wayne movie, and since John Wayne was the farthest thing from a communist that there could be, I think this proves that China is not a communist nation.