• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Showdown in Washington, D.C.

mhaze said:
It's much more likely that the reason the GOP pretty much ignored the rally is because they HEARD Beck when he repeatedly said the rally was non political.

Unlike the clueless buffoons of the left following mindless spinmeisters taking orders from starry eyed drone bugs of Soros.
Click to expand...



Political bias is such a wonderful thing.
 
Last edited:
Cicero said:
What about the leader of the Democratic Party? POTUS Obama may have "ignored" the rally, but he certainly has taken notice of Glenn Beck. Why would the POTUS even mention a guy who is supposedly "crazy, an opportunist, or both?"


"Well, I have to say, I – I did not watch the rally. I think that one of the wonderful things about this country is that at any given moment any group of people can decide, you know, ‘We want to – our voices heard.’ And so, I think that Mr. Beck and the rest of those folks were exercising their rights under our Constitution exactly as they should. … [G]iven all those anxieties – and given the fact that, you know, in none of these situations are you going to be fix things overnight. It’s not surprising that somebody like a Mr. Beck is able to stir up a certain portion of the country. That’s been true throughout our history."


Are you equally sure there were no Democrats at the rally as well as no "Atheists or Agnostics ?"


Glenn Beck rally: A warning to Obama and Democrats?

There may have been some Democrats at the Glenn Beck rally Saturday, but even many of them aren't happy with the country's direction. Does the large turnout portend trouble for Democrats?

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/0829/Glenn-Beck-rally-A-warning-to-Obama-and-Democrats
Click to expand...



I note you still ignore all the crazy that Glenn Beck has peddled.
Just because he did not go into the crazy at this one rally does not mean he is not peddling it.
BTW it is sort of hard for a rally to be "warning to the Democrats" and be "Non Political".
 
Cicero said:
The aerial pics taken a noon? Sure did.
Click to expand...

So what was the point in posting a picture showing one small area with a lot of people in it when the full picture shows lots of areas without too many people in them which supports the CBS/airphotoslive estimate.
 
Spindrift said:
So what was the point in posting a picture showing one small area with a lot of people in it when the full picture shows lots of areas without too many people in them which supports the CBS/airphotoslive estimate.
Click to expand...

Not to mention different angles. The 'straight on' shot that Cicero posted certainly looks fairly dense, which is why you need overhead shots, straight down to have a better sense of how dense the crowd actually is.
 
BeAChooser said:
Thanks. I loaded the software to let me look at them and they do confirm the opinion of CBS' experts. They did a good job of photographing the event and I hope they will do this sort of photography at all future events in which numbers might be of interest. It will go a long way towards resolving these debates about numbers once and for all. As I demonstrated, then even someone like me can take such images and come up with reasonable estimates. ;)
Click to expand...

That software was really cool. That is a very cool service that airphotoslive offers.

As for admitting I am wrong. On something finite, like number of people at an event, I would be happy to admit I am wrong if proven so. Mostly when it comes to numbers of people I don't really give a hoot. In this case I was one the first to point out the 100K is a lot of people and to congratulate Beck. Claims in the 100's of thousand seemed more based on the notion that the more people at the event the more correct Beck's ideas are rather than an objective count.

I have been involved in a number of discussions with you and I am truly impressed that you took an objective POV this time around. I shall look at you in a new light...until the next time you are wrong which is inevitable :D

I think we all agree that the CBS estimate was accurate so perhaps we can discuss the content of the event now?

One thing I have to ask is if Glenn and his followers intend to give up their wealth and possessions as they turn this country towards god? There are numerous passages in the bible that condemn the pursuit of wealth and material goods. Does this mean Beck wants us to turn from capitalism when we turn to god?
 
Cicero said:
Glenn Beck rally: A warning to Obama and Democrats?

There may have been some Democrats at the Glenn Beck rally Saturday, but even many of them aren't happy with the country's direction. Does the large turnout portend trouble for Democrats?

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/0829/Glenn-Beck-rally-A-warning-to-Obama-and-Democrats
Click to expand...

Well that article doesn't prove ay atheists or democrats were there. I notice that the CSM is sticking with the several hundred thousand number despite a lack of evidence.

The following passage is a particular gem of journalistic integrity.

and far from being a gathering of self-proclaimed rabble rousers carrying offensive signs insulting of President Obama, as has often been the case with “tea party” rallies spurred on by Mr. Beck, it was mostly a heartfelt and largely nonpartisan expression of civic concern, patriotism, and religious faith.
Click to expand...

Forgetting to note that Mr. Beck asked repeatedly for people to leave their signs and guns at home. Had he not I am sure it would have been a sea of offensive material. Even with that request we get T-SHIRTS!!!

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-dumbest-shirts-at-the-glenn-beck-rally
 
Biscuit said:
One thing I have to ask is if Glenn and his followers intend to give up their wealth and possessions as they turn this country towards god?
Click to expand...

What has that to do with the question of whether there was a "showdown" in Washington, DC (which Beck appears to have won, by the way. :D)?

Biscuit said:
There are numerous passages in the bible that condemn the pursuit of wealth and material goods. Does this mean Beck wants us to turn from capitalism when we turn to god?
Click to expand...

You can read just about anything into Bible verse if you want.

I don't think the Bible condemns the pursuit of wealth and material goods, as much as it condemns "greed", which is the obsessive accumulation of material goods. In other words, I think the Bible asks that people constantly give away some of their wealth so the accumulation does not become the most important goal in one's life. Become an "idol" to worship.

But "Christian" charity implies individual ownership and gifts by willing individuals to the needy. Not government forced redistribution of wealth to those the party in power decides are "needy" (often their own constituents ;)).

Now while we are on the subject of wealth, the Bible also states that one should not steal. I suppose the taxes that the government levies on individuals might be considered stealing (after all, it's something taken at the point of a gun), certainly when they reach the level they are now or soon will be at. It is even stealing from future generations, folks who have no voice at all and can't possible have a voice.

The Bible also says you should not covet your neighbor's house, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. But a lot of folks nowadays (especially amongst democrat constituents, it seems) sure seem to be coveting other people's property, and want to redistribute that wealth (to themselves, often).

And the Bible also values hard work. One of the Ten Commandments says we should work six days a week. That doesn't seem exactly compatible with living off the dole.

In any case, when Jesus said a "rich" man cannot get into heaven, what did he mean by "rich"? Did rich mean relative to one's neighbor or relative to most everyone else on earth? If it's the later, then almost any American will not reach heaven. Presuming you are a Christian, do you believe that? And if you aren't a Christian, what are you, because there might be some reason to question whether YOU really believe what you claim, too. :D
 
Biscuit said:
Forgetting to note that Mr. Beck asked repeatedly for people to leave their signs and guns at home. Had he not I am sure it would have been a sea of offensive material. Even with that request we get T-SHIRTS!!!
Click to expand...

Out of the 20 photos of people wearing messages on t-shirts that BuzzFeed ( founded by a HuffPo lib) managed to locate out of the CBS reported "87,000-97,000" people in attendance, there appear to be 8 people wearing t-shirts with boorish comments on them. What an indictment!

BEN JEALOUS, NAACP PRESIDENT: And it's disturbing that he felt compelled to do something that Dr. King never had to do, which is to tell his followers to leave their signs and their guns at home.

You might want to rely on what Beck actually said, not what Mr. Jealous said. The NPS stipulates what items are prohibited. Beck made no such request about firearms.

RESTORING HONOR RALLY FAQ
8.28.10 - Washington, DC


National Park Service Cleared Items to Bring
Belongings must be carried at all times.

• Food and beverage (non-alcoholic, no glass)
• Small umbrella
• Portable chair
• Personal fan or spray water bottle
• Cameras
• Blankets
• Small coolers
• Backpack
• Small flags
• Sunscreen

Prohibited Items

DO NOT BRING ANY SORT OF WEAPON, INCLUDING A POCKET KNIFE
•Tents/canopies/structures
• Glass containers
• Alcoholic beverages
• Firearms (real or simulated)
• Ammunition
• Explosives or incendiary devices of any kind (including fireworks)
• Knives, blades, or sharp objects of any length
• No staking of grounds
• No digging or trenching
• No attachments to existing landscaping
• No firearms or explosive devices, no open fires

We request that you not bring the following:

• Signs political or otherwise• Aerosols
• Laser pointers
• Mace and/or pepper spray
• Helium balloons
• Sticks or poles
• Pocket or hand tools, such as “leatherman”
• Packages, large bags, duffle bags, suitcases
• Animals other than service/guide dogs
 
Spindrift said:
So what was the point in posting a picture showing one small area with a lot of people in it when the full picture shows lots of areas without too many people in them which supports the CBS/airphotoslive estimate.
Click to expand...

More cherry-picking, just as he did earlier in the thread.
 
BeAChooser said:
What has that to do with the question of whether there was a "showdown" in Washington, DC (which Beck appears to have won, by the way. :D)?



You can read just about anything into Bible verse if you want.

I don't think the Bible condemns the pursuit of wealth and material goods, as much as it condemns "greed", which is the obsessive accumulation of material goods. In other words, I think the Bible asks that people constantly give away some of their wealth so the accumulation does not become the most important goal in one's life. Become an "idol" to worship.

But "Christian" charity implies individual ownership and gifts by willing individuals to the needy. Not government forced redistribution of wealth to those the party in power decides are "needy" (often their own constituents ;)).

Now while we are on the subject of wealth, the Bible also states that one should not steal. I suppose the taxes that the government levies on individuals might be considered stealing (after all, it's something taken at the point of a gun), certainly when they reach the level they are now or soon will be at. It is even stealing from future generations, folks who have no voice at all and can't possible have a voice.

The Bible also says you should not covet your neighbor's house, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. But a lot of folks nowadays (especially amongst democrat constituents, it seems) sure seem to be coveting other people's property, and want to redistribute that wealth (to themselves, often).

And the Bible also values hard work. One of the Ten Commandments says we should work six days a week. That doesn't seem exactly compatible with living off the dole.

In any case, when Jesus said a "rich" man cannot get into heaven, what did he mean by "rich"? Did rich mean relative to one's neighbor or relative to most everyone else on earth? If it's the later, then almost any American will not reach heaven. Presuming you are a Christian, do you believe that? And if you aren't a Christian, what are you, because there might be some reason to question whether YOU really believe what you claim, too. :D
Click to expand...

I suppose it all depends on what you think the showdown was over.

Who could draw a bigger crowd - Beck wins

I am not sure what other measure(s) we are looking at.

As far the government collecting taxes and in your opinion stealing, I don't think the government is a living entity and thus can not be judged by god so the conversation ends there.

I like how you can relate all sins to liberals as if there is no conservative on welfare or envious! Jesus also said love they neighbor so you should feel proud that your tax dollars can go to help a family that has hit hard times. I am not aware of anyone who wants to redistribute wealth that I, as a liberal, support. Wouldn't it be more christ like for the wealthy to give all their wealth away anyhow?

I am certain that claims of relative wealth help Glenn Beck, and maybe you, sleep at night. Compared to Bill gates glenn is a pauper and thus will enter the gates of heaven! True, American's are wealthier than most other people, but seeing as how I am a secular humanist I don't concern my self with hell or wealth. I just think its funny that wealthy men like Beck talk so earnestly of god but, according to their own beliefs, stand no chance of meeting him. So at his restoration of honor he appears to have so little.

I am not saying that christianity and capitalism are mutually exclusive concepts rather I would submit that to be a good christian you have to be a bad capitalist and to be a good capitalist you have to be a bad christian. Perhaps this is for a new thread?
 
The request not to bring signs was changed the week of the rally. Before that, it was listed as prohibited, with a note saying something like they didn't want them because they might cause disruption.

I wish I could find a cache of that. All I have now is my memory of reading it the week before the rally.
 
Last edited:
Cicero said:
airphotos.com didn't include this shot on their website. Are you offended by including this crowd level photo in this thread for some reason?
Click to expand...
Why would airphotoslive include someone else's photo on their site? They had more than enough from all kinds of angles.

Offended? No. Perplexed by what relevance you think a single photo has. A photo that is not in any way indicative of the overall crowd.
Cicero said:
BTW: Citing BAC as your go to reference is indeed fascinating. Are there any other BAC posts where you endorse his conclusions?
Click to expand...
No.

BAC is being cited because in the question of the crowd count, he set out his assumptions and calculations and the results follow. One might quibble about some of his assumptions but overall it's a decent analysis based on the evidence available, not just a single photo. You might try something like that on occasion you might actually get something right.
 
Last edited:
BeAChooser said:
You can read just about anything into Bible verse if you want.

I don't think the Bible condemns the pursuit of wealth and material goods, as much as it condemns "greed", which is the obsessive accumulation of material goods. In other words, I think the Bible asks that people constantly give away some of their wealth so the accumulation does not become the most important goal in one's life. Become an "idol" to worship.

But "Christian" charity implies individual ownership and gifts by willing individuals to the needy. Not government forced redistribution of wealth to those the party in power decides are "needy" (often their own constituents ;)).
Click to expand...

Well, no. The instructions in the New Testament include Acts, chapter 2, verses 44 to 45, "And all that believed were together, and had all things common; and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."

Furthermore, the capitalism that America is built on clearly contradicts the Bible which says that people should not charge interest when lending money. Deuteronomy 23:19-20 et al.
 
Cicero said:
Out of the 20 photos of people wearing messages on t-shirts that BuzzFeed ( founded by a HuffPo lib) managed to locate out of the CBS reported "87,000-97,000" people in attendance, there appear to be 8 people wearing t-shirts with boorish comments on them. What an indictment!

BEN JEALOUS, NAACP PRESIDENT: And it's disturbing that he felt compelled to do something that Dr. King never had to do, which is to tell his followers to leave their signs and their guns at home.

You might want to rely on what Beck actually said, not what Mr. Jealous said. The NPS stipulates what items are prohibited. Beck made no such request about firearms....
Click to expand...

So Jealous Jealous is a liar?
 
Ladewig said:
Well, no. The instructions in the New Testament include Acts, chapter 2, verses 44 to 45, "And all that believed were together, and had all things common; and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."

Furthermore, the capitalism that America is built on clearly contradicts the Bible which says that people should not charge interest when lending money. Deuteronomy 23:19-20 et al.
Click to expand...

Fail.

This cannot be juryrigged into a forcing of people into "belief", or a forcing of people to make all things common, or a forcing of people to part their goods to all men. Further it describes the way the starter groups of christians operated, and can't be extended to be an assertion of how Rome should have operated.

Your second wild and crazy assertion might have some merit but it ascribes a characteristic to capitalism which is a false attribution. That is, you have not shown that this is discretely an attribute of capitalism and not of socialism, capitalism, or fascism. If you accept that all these societal forms incorporate interest, then you have a moot point where no cause and effect is implied, but where instead, some fundamental use or need of interest pervades these societal forms.
 
mhaze said:
Fail.

This cannot be juryrigged into a forcing of people into "belief", or a forcing of people to make all things common, or a forcing of people to part their goods to all men. Further it describes the way the starter groups of christians operated, and can't be extended to be an assertion of how Rome should have operated.
Click to expand...

Why can't it be extended into other times and places? Or more accurately, why should it not be extended? Where does the Bible say this approach should be temporary? Also, what other activities described in the Bible are meant to be temporary?

Your second wild and crazy assertion might have some merit but it ascribes a characteristic to capitalism which is a false attribution.
Click to expand...

Are there current or historical examples of capitalism that do not involve loans with interest?

That is, you have not shown that this is discretely an attribute of capitalism and not of socialism, capitalism, or fascism.
Click to expand...

Why do I have to address socialism or fascism? I am asserting that charging interest on loans is an inherent part of capitalism - I may be wrong in that assertion, but the actual or perceived attributes of socialism are irrelevant in discussing the accuracy of that assertion.

Personally, I like capitalism and I like the idea of charging interest for loans. I was just pointing out that following the Bible in 21st century America is no small feat - especially for rich people.

..................................................................
ETA:
mhaze said:
This cannot be juryrigged into a forcing of people into "belief", or a forcing of people to make all things common, or a forcing of people to part their goods to all men.
Click to expand...

You misunderstand me. I am NOT advocating that the government or the church forcefully take property. I was pointing out that Christians wanting to follow the Bible should follow all parts of the Bible, not just the convenient parts. God says, sell your objects and pool your money. If you want to follow God's Word, then that is what must be done.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom