The Boy Scouts

[GreyArea]

Instead, I decided that since there was no active discrimination in the area around me, I would participate, accept the good things, and at least occasionally complain about the bad things. I must admit that I was surprised to learn that the ban on homosexuals applied to scouts themselves, and not just leaders. That gives me a bit of pause, but not enough to make me quit. In practice, I can't see it being a problem in my area. In Utah? In South Carolina? Maybe.

I hope that you and other like-minded participants succeed in overturning the anti-gay and anti-atheist policies.

But if that happens, wouldn't the Mormon, and possibly Catholic, troops quit the BSA? Would the loss of such a large proportion of the membership cripple the organization?

 

[RobRoy]

I think you make a good argument for why atheism should not be an offense, but I'm not even in scouting so it's not me your argument would have to convince.

The question I was responding to wasn’t in regards to an atheist witch hunt within the BSA. It was in regards to atheists taking an oath that would, in some part, be a lie. The reading of the Scout Oath and Law do not reflect a lie for an atheist. But if the concern is still present, the real question is why is this part of the oath or law is any more of an issue than the Scout (atheist or theist) who doesn’t clean his room when his parents ask. A violation of both, but clearly a non-issue to the atheist parent who is so bent out of shape over having to say "do my best to do my duty to God and my country".

 

[RobRoy]

But if that happens, wouldn't the Mormon, and possibly Catholic, troops quit the BSA? Would the loss of such a large proportion of the membership cripple the organization?

I don’t know about the Catholic troops, but as far as I’m aware, there has been no policy statement from the US Roman Catholic Church in this regard. Given how the RCC handles such things, especially in the US, I would think this would be on a troop by troop basis, rather than a mass exodus.

On the other hand, the LDS policy is that if BSA changes its membership requirements, they will leave. Currently, LDS backed troops make up about 13% of the total BSA. A good chunk, to be certain, but not crippling. Given how interwoven the LDS faith has made Scouting, I’m not exactly certain they could immediately drop membership as they suggest.

The repercussions would be interesting to watch as the LDS struggled to find another group that so closely aligned with their program for the boys at various stages.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The question I was responding to wasn’t in regards to an atheist witch hunt within the BSA. It was in regards to atheists taking an oath that would, in some part, be a lie. The reading of the Scout Oath and Law do not reflect a lie for an atheist. But if the concern is still present, the real question is why is this part of the oath or law is any more of an issue than the Scout (atheist or theist) who doesn’t clean his room when his parents ask. A violation of both, but clearly a non-issue to the atheist parent who is so bent out of shape over having to say "do my best to do my duty to God and my country".

I answered that. It is rejecting an ideal not failing to live up to one. People are fallible but it isn't like not cleaning and failing cleanliness, it is like refusing to clean and rejecting that cleanliness is something to be striven for.

This is a significant distinction. I mean it is not that you simply were to busy to believe in god now was it? I have never heard of anyone saying that was why they were an atheist.

 

[RobRoy]

I answered that.

I didn’t say you didn’t, although I don’t recall you doing so.

It is rejecting an ideal not failing to live up to one. People are fallible but it isn't like not cleaning and failing cleanliness, it is like refusing to clean and rejecting that cleanliness is something to be striven for.

If you say so. Clearly, we interpret the Scout Oath and Law differently.

This is a significant distinction. I mean it is not that you simply were to busy to believe in god now was it? I have never heard of anyone saying that was why they were an atheist.

You must have me confused with someone else.

 

[Kestrel]

The question I was responding to wasn’t in regards to an atheist witch hunt within the BSA. It was in regards to atheists taking an oath that would, in some part, be a lie. The reading of the Scout Oath and Law do not reflect a lie for an atheist. But if the concern is still present, the real question is why is this part of the oath or law is any more of an issue than the Scout (atheist or theist) who doesn’t clean his room when his parents ask. A violation of both, but clearly a non-issue to the atheist parent who is so bent out of shape over having to say "do my best to do my duty to God and my country".

If you define God as a man with a beard who lives in the sky, being reverent is a lie.

If you define God as a etherial concept representing the ideals of a moral life, it's not a problem.

It is however bloody hard to explain the later definition to folks who believe in the magic man in the sky.

 

[Dr. Keith]

The thing is that I am not sure you are accurate. It would be kind of like saying how the priests and such you knew in the local catholic church is the church you want, not the one aiding and abetting child rape and spreading dangerous lies about condoms. That is the real church as an organisation, you just where involved in a group that did not represent the real organisation.

Except for the matter of timing. If the RC church started doing all of those bad things in the nineties I would be calling for them to return to their pre-90's state of not aiding and abetting child rape, etc. Becuase I would have remembered how good the RC church was before those crimes. (hypothetically assuming that I thought the RC was otherwise good)

In contrast, the BSA was a very decentralized organization until the 90's when it felt pressure of abuse cases. As Rob mentioned they reacted poorly. Women are allowed to be leaders in the BSA, but not openly gay men. So, save the tent sharing arguments. This is pure bigotry from on high. The point being that two deep leadership, when properly employed, eliminates almost all risk of abuse and the BSA has done a very good job of training its leaders on this. Yet, they will not allow a council or troop to be open to gays.

The truth is that few troops would be open to gays, even if the BSA removed this rule. Most sponsoring organizations would be opposed and the leaders of the troops would have the final decision. But, the few that would like to be open to gay parents or well trained gay scouts are not allowed to. They are allowed to have convicted rapists, felons, drunks, or even retired catholic priests, if they want, but not gays. It is irrational and counter to much of what scouting was about prior to the mid 1990's.

This is why when I a atheist friend brought up his son joining scouts I suggested he be open to this. I think you can find groups that are decent despite my experience with scouting in this area and my issues with the BSA.

True, you can find troops that do not toe the BSA line where it interferes with their operations. But, wouldn't it be better if the BSA returned to their non-centralized state of accepting the troops judgment?

The other problem that the BSA likes to ignore is that many former supporters of the BSA are no longer able to support them. Anti-discrimination policies at many schools, religious organizations, and supporting charities make supporting the BSA and local troops impossible. As more organizations review their anti-discrimination policies the BSA will become even more dependent on the right wing conservative churches that are pushing for the discrimination in the first place.

For me it is akin to seeing a family member becoming more and more dependent on a cult as the cult tells them their real family is the spawn of satan and trying to buy their love. It really disturbs me.

 

[RobRoy]

If you define God as a man with a beard who lives in the sky, being reverent is a lie.

If you define God as a etherial concept representing the ideals of a moral life, it's not a problem.

It is however bloody hard to explain the later definition to folks who believe in the magic man in the sky.

I'm not seeing the issue here. It looks like you’re making a case against the BSA policy regarding belief in God, however, the BSA doesn’t dictate which religion that you’re a part of, or even that you’re a part of any organized religion at all. Hence the Buddhists, Wiccans, and Native American members. There’s no requirement that you “explain the later definition to folks who believe in the magic man in the sky”.

Maybe I'm just missing your point?

 

[Dr. Keith]

I don’t know about the Catholic troops, but as far as I’m aware, there has been no policy statement from the US Roman Catholic Church in this regard. Given how the RCC handles such things, especially in the US, I would think this would be on a troop by troop basis, rather than a mass exodus.

I doubt there would be much change. The RCC troops could still exclude gays and atheist even if the BSA did not.

On the other hand, the LDS policy is that if BSA changes its membership requirements, they will leave.

That is what they say, but they have active troops in other countries that do not ban gays, so I wonder about the logic of this statement. (Yes, expecting logic from the LDS must be a bit much, but I am optimistic.)

Currently, LDS backed troops make up about 13% of the total BSA. A good chunk, to be certain, but not crippling. Given how interwoven the LDS faith has made Scouting, I’m not exactly certain they could immediately drop membership as they suggest.

The repercussions would be interesting to watch as the LDS struggled to find another group that so closely aligned with their program for the boys at various stages.

They claim to have a parallel program in place that the existing troops could be spun into without much delay.

I was always intrigued by the independence of the LDS chaplains at places like Philmont. I thought they had their own vehicles as a sort of status symbol, but I now think it was more to make a point that they did not rely on the scouts as much as the scouts relied on them.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I didn’t say you didn’t, although I don’t recall you doing so.

Fine you are not an atheist then that is not your concern but that is the issue many atheists take issue with their positions on god and atheists.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm not seeing the issue here. It looks like you’re making a case against the BSA policy regarding belief in God, however, the BSA doesn’t dictate which religion that you’re a part of, or even that you’re a part of any organized religion at all. Hence the Buddhists, Wiccans, and Native American members. There’s no requirement that you “explain the later definition to folks who believe in the magic man in the sky”.

Maybe I'm just missing your point?

So you are saying that the provision in the Texas state constitution is OK because it does not specify which deity a state employee must believe in only that they must believe in a deity?

 

[GreyArea]

I'm not seeing the issue here. It looks like you’re making a case against the BSA policy regarding belief in God, however, the BSA doesn’t dictate which religion that you’re a part of, or even that you’re a part of any organized religion at all.

Let me ask about the process of expelling someone, since I'm an outsider to the BSA.

Let's say Scout A lets slip that he doesn't believe in God, any god. Scout B happens to hear this and reports him to the adult in charge, under the impression that what Scout A said is irreverent.

How much discretion does the adult in charge have regarding how to proceed? From what you've said previously, it sounds like they could tell Scout B that BSA is a bigger tent than he thought and leave it at that. But on the other hand, what if the leader believes that to fulfill his oath a scout must believe in some kind of Supreme Being?

In an example like this, what is the process for kicking someone out? Does the local leader have to justify anything up the chain of command? Does Scout A have the opportunity to appeal, possibly using the defense that you have outlined?

As I said before, I think you make a good case. But couldn't the people in charge, whose opinion is what really matters, disagree with you?

 

[Dr. Keith]

I answered that. It is rejecting an ideal not failing to live up to one. People are fallible but it isn't like not cleaning and failing cleanliness, it is like refusing to clean and rejecting that cleanliness is something to be striven for.

I agree, but maybe I don't see the "swearing of an oath" as dogmatically as you do. Neither the Oath nor the Law have "believing and worshiping god" as their central tenets. Reverence does not require a god, and the swearing at the end of the oath seems a bit pro-forma to hang a true belief in god on.

I'm an atheist, but were I to be a witness at a trial I probably would not go to the trouble of leaving off the "so help me god" part of the oath. It is just not of consequence to me. I don't believe in god so what do I care? It is pro-forma BS left over from a less enlightened portion of our history.

I still say "bless you" when someone sneezes and can be heard to proclaim the lord's name in times of great pain or great joy. So what?

I see the "god and country" stuff much the same.

Maybe that makes me a bad atheist.

 

[Dr. Keith]

So you are saying that the provision in the Texas state constitution is OK because it does not specify which deity a state employee must believe in only that they must believe in a deity?

Not sure what provision you are talking about, but the BSA is not a government body, so I would expect different rules to apply.

 

[GreyArea]

The other problem that the BSA likes to ignore is that many former supporters of the BSA are no longer able to support them. Anti-discrimination policies at many schools, religious organizations, and supporting charities make supporting the BSA and local troops impossible.

Does this get us back to the original post? If the primary or secondary school in question has such nondiscrimination policies, maybe they can't allow themselves to give classroom time to an organization that has such different policies.

Perhaps this is an avenue for SgtBaker to investigate.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Let me ask about the process of expelling someone, since I'm an outsider to the BSA.

Let's say Scout A lets slip that he doesn't believe in God, any god. Scout B happens to hear this and reports him to the adult in charge, under the impression that what Scout A said is irreverent.

How much discretion does the adult in charge have regarding how to proceed? From what you've said previously, it sounds like they could tell Scout B that BSA is a bigger tent than he thought and leave it at that. But on the other hand, what if the leader believes that to fulfill his oath a scout must believe in some kind of Supreme Being?

In an example like this, what is the process for kicking someone out? Does the local leader have to justify anything up the chain of command? Does Scout A have the opportunity to appeal, possibly using the defense that you have outlined?

As I said before, I think you make a good case. But couldn't the people in charge, whose opinion is what really matters, disagree with you?

The leader does have discretion, but if the scout makes a public statement of not believing in god the current BSA policy is to exclude them from being a leader in the troop. Since the purpose of scouting is to hold increasingly higher leadership positions as you work your way through the program, this pretty much excludes participation for most scouts. It certainly precludes the scout from attaining higher ranks.

This has not always been the policy of the BSA and this policy is not well grounded in the Oath and Law, but it is the current policy.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Does this get us back to the original post? If the primary or secondary school in question has such nondiscrimination policies, maybe they can't allow themselves to give classroom time to an organization that has such different policies.

Perhaps this is an avenue for SgtBaker to investigate.

Yes.

And that saddens me a bit, but I think if more schools exclude them more troops will start complaining to the BSA.

 

[Kestrel]

I'm not seeing the issue here. It looks like you’re making a case against the BSA policy regarding belief in God, however, the BSA doesn’t dictate which religion that you’re a part of, or even that you’re a part of any organized religion at all. Hence the Buddhists, Wiccans, and Native American members. There’s no requirement that you “explain the later definition to folks who believe in the magic man in the sky”.

Maybe I'm just missing your point?

I do understand the BSA policy.

I was explaining the rational I used as Boy Scout. I had no problem being reverent to God, or doing my duty to God, because of my definition of God. When asked, I simply said I believed in a personal God.

The issue seldom came up, perhaps because the troop I belonged to was far more diverse than typical. We had kids from just about every major religion, several different ethnic groups and every economic class.

It may not have worked in a more typical troop sponsored by a church, where all the boys practice the same religion. The pressure to conform would by much higher in that situation.

 

[RobRoy]

I doubt there would be much change. The RCC troops could still exclude gays and atheist even if the BSA did not.

Agreed. Although the question was if they would leave the BSA. I don’t think they would.

That is what they say, but they have active troops in other countries that do not ban gays, so I wonder about the logic of this statement. (Yes, expecting logic from the LDS must be a bit much, but I am optimistic.)

In this case, it’s the threat of the BSA, which has been declining over the last couple of decades, of suddenly losing a chunk of members. It’s a fear tactic.

They claim to have a parallel program in place that the existing troops could be spun into without much delay.

Really? I didn’t know they made this claim. I have no idea what that program would be. I would assume they would just drop the Scouting portion of their Deacon, Priest, and other Young Men program. Shame, really, as the Scouts provide so much more.

I was always intrigued by the independence of the LDS chaplains at places like Philmont. I thought they had their own vehicles as a sort of status symbol, but I now think it was more to make a point that they did not rely on the scouts as much as the scouts relied on them.

Sorry, I’m not certain what you mean here?

Fine you are not an atheist then that is not your concern but that is the issue many atheists take issue with their positions on god and atheists.

Where did you get the impression that this isn’t a concern of mine? I would think from the pages of posts that I’ve made on this topic, I’ve been very clear that this is an issue that concerns me and concerns me deeply. Rationalizing the discrimination of the BSA with the benefits is not much fun for me.

So you are saying that the provision in the Texas state constitution is OK because it does not specify which deity a state employee must believe in only that they must believe in a deity?

I’m not familiar with this Texas issue, but I see where you’re going. My response would be where did I say I felt this policy of discrimination was OK? The question was brought up regarding atheist concern over having to say the Scout Oath. That’s what I’ve addressed. I've never supported the BSA policy in regards to homosexuals or atheism.

Let me ask about the process of expelling someone, since I'm an outsider to the BSA.

I’m not familiar with the process, so I couldn’t speak intelligently upon it. Sorry. This isn’t meant as a dodge, I see what you’re saying. My point, as I made it above, is that I’m not attempting to provide a justification from the Scout or the leader to the BSA, but rather show how being an atheist and saying the Scout Oath is not instantly a violation of that oath.

In the end, my argument wouldn’t hold any water with the upper leadership of the BSA. Such a Scout or leader would face expulsion from the organization.

 

[RobRoy]

I do understand the BSA policy.

I was explaining the rational I used as Boy Scout. I had no problem being reverent to God, or doing my duty to God, because of my definition of God. When asked, I simply said I believed in a personal God.

The issue seldom came up, perhaps because the troop I belonged to was far more diverse than typical. We had kids from just about every major religion, several different ethnic groups and every economic class.

Gotcha. This is how I view the matter as well when looking through the lens of atheism.

It may not have worked in a more typical troop sponsored by a church, where all the boys practice the same religion. The pressure to conform would by much higher in that situation.

Perhaps. The troop I belonged to as a Scout as sponsored by the Community Church of Christ (or something like that, it’s been a long time). The majority of members were Catholic, but there was a smattering of other religions and some boys who weren’t anything at all. My current troops is LDS, but local enough that we have a few boys who are non-members. I didn’t see any specific pressure then, and I don’t now, but this is all anecdotal. I can see how such a stance might cause additional stress from other Scouts.