Military Draft

The officer corps is heavily right-leaning, but the lower enlisted, those who just do the minimum and move on, tend to be far more left-leaning than the officers and senior enlisted.

Lefty, that may have been true in 1974, but you might be very surprised to find how things have changed in the year 2010.
 
Vietnam brought about some major changes in the make up of the armed forces. Once the Democratic party was the bastion of military interventionists. Now it is the Republican party. Times changes. Remember, the neoconservative movement has its roots in American Liberalism and the Democratic party. Conservatives may have lost ground in the military in recent years, but they are still the largest population compared to centrists and liberals.
 
The officer corps is heavily right-leaning, but the lower enlisted, those who just do the minimum and move on, tend to be far more left-leaning than the officers and senior enlisted. The experience of serving sends a lot of them to the left. I have noticed a lot of people around here who used to think Republicans were more to be trusted with military powers, until they learned the awful truth about Rummy. (Need any better example of why I don't want Republicans running the DoD?)

On the average, here, I find that more of the liberals that I know have served than have the rightwingers. It is largely the military vote that keeps Patty Murray in the Senate and Norm Dicks in the House. We know who has our backs, on active duty or retired status.

You tried asserting things without evidence once in this thread already. It didn't work out well. Go find a survey or something then come back.
 
My estimates are not as "scientific" as whatever the pollsters come up with, but it is interesting to note that the highest number of liberals in Washington State are elected from communities with the highest numbers of military personnel. Norm Dicks, Jim McDermott and Adam Smith all rely heavily on the vote from the Ft Lewis and Bremerton areas. Patty Murray is also strongest in western Washington, which is, over-all, more heavily impacted by the military, less so in eastern Washington, where there is little military impact.

A draft would shift that balance even more to the left, especially in light of the crappy deal the Republicans have handed active and retired soldiers in the last thirty years.

And the Dominionists dread the thought of a draft because they would be targetted by protestors and hounded into silence. Draftees would more actively resent and work against conversion by intimidation.

We do not need an army of Christian soldiers and a recruiting ground for idiots like Erik Prince.

We also need someone to counter any attempt by white nationalists to subvert the armed forces.
 
My estimates are not as "scientific" as whatever the pollsters come up with, but it is interesting to note that the highest number of liberals in Washington State are elected from communities with the highest numbers of military personnel.
Don't military personnel vote in their home states as opposed to where their base is?
 
Hi.

I've noticed that some advocates on the left wing advocate having military conscription (draft) in America, so as to make it harder to support wars (if you or someone close to you has to fight in the war, then maybe it'll make you reconsider it). Do you think this'd really accomplish that goal, esp. with the current culture? Or could it embolden corrupt "leaders" to launch even bigger and grander wars due to the surplus of manpower that would be provided? Would it kill the economy (more than it's already been "killed")?
The draft clearly played a part in public sentiment that eventually stopped the Vietnam War.

But the rich managed to get their kids out of the draft for the most part, so conscription might be better than a typical draft.
 
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Don't military personnel vote in their home states as opposed to where their base is?
They also tend to settle near their favorite duty station. Walk into the commissary or PX on any given day and you will find about three or four retirees to every active duty soldier here. For such a left-leaning state, we seem to draw a lot of old soldiers back.
 
IMHO, the armed forces should be built according to military needs, not political ones.
Military needs are political. War is simply the continuation of politics through military means.

Every need the military in Afghanistan has is a direct result from the political need to stay there and produce some kind of success.

Likewise, if it was considered a political need to get a load of unschooled military and civil service work done cheaply there could be a military need for the draft.

And it may not be such a bad idea - from what I hear the military outsources a lot of unschooled work like cleaning and serving of meals to contractors, because its all-volunteer force doesn't like to do it. Draftees could do it instead.
Same for civil service, I'm sure a city like New York has a lot of places that could use cleaning.
 
My estimates are not as "scientific" as whatever the pollsters come up with, but it is interesting to note that the highest number of liberals in Washington State are elected from communities with the highest numbers of military personnel. .

Poor goalposts. They've been worn to a nub...



Lefty: Republicans are cowards and don't join the military.

Forum: This survey shows Republicans are a large portion of the military.

Goalposts: *SCREEEEEEEEECH*

Lefty: Republicans aren't a large part of the enlisted men and women.

Forum: Have evidence of that?

Goalposts: *SCREEEEEEEEECH*

Lefty: Military districts seem to vote Democrat.
 
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Military needs are political....

And it may not be such a bad idea - from what I hear the military outsources a lot of unschooled work like cleaning and serving of meals to contractors, because its all-volunteer force doesn't like to do it. Draftees could do it instead.
Same for civil service, I'm sure a city like New York has a lot of places that could use cleaning.

Its not so much that the volunteer military doesn't want to do the scut work, but that the accountants have come up with results showing contractors as being more cost effective. On a spreadsheet it is cheaper to shut down the base messhall and get rid of the food service specialists, and instead pay a company to run an on base cafeteria with prices in range of the daily food allowance, give or take a few bucks on the soldiers end.

The same thing happens with security. Why do Armed Forces have civilian base police even though each branch has its own security speciality? because by highering civilians you can have less on base, more/same downrange, but fewer in the speciality overall.

The yard work and trash collection and such, the true scut work I think ties into one of my big irritants with military and politics. At some point in the past military installations became a source of employment for the economy, which in itself is neither good nor bad, but it causes problems when the military decides for instance that base 'A' is no longer required, but can not close it down because Senator 'X' has too much pull and doesn't want the source of income in his state to go away.

jalok
 
Its not so much that the volunteer military doesn't want to do the scut work, but that the accountants have come up with results showing contractors as being more cost effective.
In other words, the volunteer military doesn't want to do it for a reasonable price. That amounts to the same thing.

The yard work and trash collection and such, the true scut work I think ties into one of my big irritants with military and politics. At some point in the past military installations became a source of employment for the economy, which in itself is neither good nor bad, but it causes problems when the military decides for instance that base 'A' is no longer required, but can not close it down because Senator 'X' has too much pull and doesn't want the source of income in his state to go away.
There's a similar issue with military procurement. That's often guided more by the jobs it creates for defence contractors than by requirements of operations in the field. Examples include jetfighters which have their manufacturing spread among 48 states, such that 96 senators are economically motivated to support purchase.
 
Its not so much that the volunteer military doesn't want to do the scut work, but that the accountants have come up with results showing contractors as being more cost effective. On a spreadsheet it is cheaper to shut down the base messhall and get rid of the food service specialists, and instead pay a company to run an on base cafeteria with prices in range of the daily food allowance, give or take a few bucks on the soldiers end.

The same thing happens with security. Why do Armed Forces have civilian base police even though each branch has its own security speciality? because by highering civilians you can have less on base, more/same downrange, but fewer in the speciality overall.

The yard work and trash collection and such, the true scut work I think ties into one of my big irritants with military and politics. At some point in the past military installations became a source of employment for the economy, which in itself is neither good nor bad, but it causes problems when the military decides for instance that base 'A' is no longer required, but can not close it down because Senator 'X' has too much pull and doesn't want the source of income in his state to go away.

jalok


Perhaps more significant, accountants have also come up with ways to put the cost in different places, whether it is more cost effective or not. The actual chore being accomplished isn't always as important as which pocket the cash is coming out of ... on paper, at least. This can make some carefully phrased cost reporting seem more politically palatable.

I would not be surprised to discover that outsourcing services to civilians might result in increased profit margins to those civilians as well, if not necessarily in equal or improved services. There are political benefits for that outcome too.
 
But the rich managed to get their kids out of the draft for the most part, so conscription might be better than a typical draft.
SG, that makes no sense, unless you frequently say that an elephant might be better than a typical pachyderm. In which case it might make sense to you, but pretty much to nobody else.
 
I would not be surprised to discover that outsourcing services to civilians might result in increased profit margins to those civilians as well, if not necessarily in equal or improved services. There are political benefits for that outcome too.
I think you know that this is the case, and are unwilling to simply state it more forcefully. Well, the political influences what jobs are in what district, to the point that the Seabees (Navy Civil Engineering and Construction pros) are rarely allowed to do civil engineering tasks, like construction, on bases in CONUS.

Let's try and figure out just why that is, eh? ;)
 
I think you know that this is the case, and are unwilling to simply state it more forcefully. Well, the political influences what jobs are in what district, to the point that the Seabees (Navy Civil Engineering and Construction pros) are rarely allowed to do civil engineering tasks, like construction, on bases in CONUS.

Let's try and figure out just why that is, eh? ;)


Yeah, I know.

Truth be told, I'm a little wishy-washy in my own mind on the subject, and have yet to divine a 'Golden Rule" that I feel can be applied to different examples and yield a consistent answer.

For example, I can see something like base trash collection working okay as a private sector function, but I'm a little split on food service, at least beyond allowing some private sector offerings as an addition, but not as a replacement.

On the other end of the spectrum I think the idea of employing private sector "security" forces in combat areas, even pacified (?) ones, a la Blackwater, is a despicable corruption of our military expenditure that may rank up there with buying torpedoes that are known not to work, and then cashiering officers for cowardice when they don't.

Construction is a toughie. My whole career has been in that field, in the field. I've worked on a number of on-base projects, and there are pros and cons that I can see. Have seen.

The potentials for financial abuse are rampant, but on the other hand there is very much of an infrastructure in the construction industry, both physical and less tangible, which isn't duplicated in the military. I think there may be reason to argue that it shouldn't be (i.e. doesn't need to be) except in very specific circumstances. My experiences working with the field review of military engineers on on-base projects hasn't been particularly unpleasant. No more so than any heavily bureaucratized project whether it be public or private sector. I've done buildings for IBM which were a lot worse. :)

Like I said. Wishy-washy. :p
 
Some bickeroid posts moved to AAH. Please keep it on topic and not about each other.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
I don't want Soldiers that do not want to be Soldiers in my squad. I want highly motivated and highly professional Soldiers.

Most civilians I know couldn't "hang" anyway if you know what I mean
 

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