Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Rincewind]

I see you ignored the multiple disclaimers on the Wikipedia Page (as usual).

Not to mention that Eusebius (c. 263–339 CE) is no more reliable than any other Explicitly Christian Source with an agenda (i.e. Hegesippus), non-contemporaneous or otherwise.

Nor is there is nothing odd about making comments about a physical artifact that exists in one's own time. All the better to bamboozle the gullible.

GB

Ah - beat me to it! I think I'll have to stop sleeping!

Eusebius - clearly an eye-witness, then, eh DOC?

 

[Rincewind]

Okie Dokie then.
Well, back in the late eighties, I beat the record for high-school soccer by scoring an incredible 6 goals in a row.
Indeed, they did put a plaque on the wall to celebrate this event.

Ok, now go and debunk that.

...

Actually, I'm sure that if you check "Sir Ramsay", Thomas Jefferson, Paul - in his epistle to Soccer Monthly - Caesar, Eusebius, Geisler and Aberhaten you'll find plenty of DOC-style evidence to refute your claim.

Actually, I'm beginning to doubt the dates for Eusebius - didn't he play football for Portugal in the 1960's?

Ciao!

 

[zooterkin]

Actually, I'm sure that if you check "Sir Ramsay", Thomas Jefferson, Paul - in his epistle to Soccer Monthly - Caesar, Eusebius, Geisler and Aberhaten you'll find plenty of DOC-style evidence to refute your claim.

Actually, I'm beginning to doubt the dates for Eusebius - didn't he play football for Portugal in the 1960's?

Indeed he did, and your google search will surely find that Sir Ramsey (Alf) can vouch for that, as he designated Nobby Stiles to deal with Eusebio in the semi-final of the 1966 World Cup.

 

[zooterkin]

So did anyone verify this claim of Eusebius, that "a pillar was erected that still remains close by the temple."?

Lots, although you'd need to take it with a grain of salt.


Oops, that's OT, isn't it?

Nominated for the concentrated pithiness.

 

[Mojo]

"And so he suffered martyrdom; and they buried him on the spot, and the pillar erected to his memory still remains, close by the temple"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Just

And it seems odd Eusebius would also write that a pillar was erected that still remains close by the temple. Why put that in there where people can verify if it is true or not if you are making it up.

Even if it could be confirmed that the pillar was there, and that it was intended to commemorate his martyrdom, all it means (at best) is that at some point in the 250 years between the alleged martyrdom and Eusabius writing his history some people believed he had been martyred. Eusabius doesn't say when it was put up, so it could have been at any time. Given your (fallacious) argument that the NT is true because early Christians were a persecuted minority it seems unlikely that it would have been put up shortly after the event it is alleged to commemorate. It is no more evidence for James's martyrdom than churches are evidence for Christ.

And, once more, the fact that people are prepared to die for their beliefs can only be evidence for the sincerity of those beliefs. It is not evidence that those beliefs are true.

 

[shawmutt]

I'm sure in 14,945 posts this has been posted already, but it bears repeating:

 

[MRC_Hans]

And, once more, the fact that people are prepared to die for their beliefs can only be evidence for the sincerity of those beliefs. It is not evidence that those beliefs are true.

Hopefully not. Otherwise those suicide bombers have a strong case.

Hans

 

[tsig]

I'd be more likely to believe you if you (and many others) traveled all over the world risking your life and occasionally being beaten for that belief.

How many times and how hard do I have to be beaten to make my beliefs true?

Was Sir Ramsey beaten so that you know he's a true witness?

 

[Akhenaten]

.

 

[DOC]

So you agree that it cannot be verified to determine its reliability.

At the time he wrote it it could certainly be verified. This is similar to Paul basically saying over 250 people who saw the resurrected Christ were still alive.

1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Cr 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Cr 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Cr 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

That's a very dangerous thing to say if it wasn't true. It would be like Barack Obama saying over 250 family friends and relatives were able to verify he was born in Hawaii.

 

[paximperium]

At the time he wrote it it could certainly be verified. This is similar to Paul implying over 250 people who saw the resurrected Christ were still alive. That's a very dangerous thing to say if it wasn't true. It would be like Barack Obama saying over 250 family friends and relatives were able to verify he was born in Hawaii.

So it cannot be verified. End of Story. Thanks for playing.

 

[paximperium]

Pssst...is DOC lamely attempting to use the Bible to prove the Bible again?

 

[Akhenaten]

Pssst...is DOC lamely attempting to use the Bible to prove the Bible again?

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[DOC]

And we know gospel writer Luke (who was praised by Sir William M. Ramsay as a great historian regarding things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence) stated Stephen was stoned for his Christian faith and the apostle Paul witnessed this stoning.

There you go again, DOC, trying to use the NT as evidence that the NT is true.

When a person like gospel writer Luke (who was praised by Sir William M. Ramsay as a great historian regarding things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence ) --

(scroll down this link http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51643 and view the 84 facts of Luke and you'll see why)

-- says a non-supernatural event occurred, then it is just pure bias not to believe it occurred. Ask any historian if it is "historical" evidence or not.

 

[Hokulele]

-- says a non-supernatural event occurred, then it is just pure bias not to believe it occurred. Ask any historian if it is historical evidence or not.

Of course it is a bias. It is a bias towards reality, as hearsay is not very good evidence, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

But you already knew that, it was gone over umpteen times in the past.

 

[DOC]

Pssst...is DOC lamely attempting to use the Bible to prove the Bible again?

No, I'm just stating historical evidence -- you are another person who confuses the difference between evidence and proof. Surely you don't deny the former skeptic Paul was a historical person who helped make belief in the Greek and Roman gods extinct.

 

[DOC]

Of course it is a bias. It is a bias towards reality, as hearsay is not very good evidence, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

So then people are idiots to buy well known Shelby Foote's 2 volume book on the Civil War because he didn't witness any of the civil war.

And why are you talking about extraordinary claims when I specifically said a "non-supernatural evemt".

 

[John Jones]

So then people are idiots to buy well known Shelby Foote's 2 volume book on the Civil War because he didn't witness any of the civil war.

Apples and tea kettles.

Are you claiming that the Civil War is a disputed fact, or that there were no contemporary accounts of the civil war by eyewitnesses?

 

[joobz]

At the time he wrote it it could certainly be verified. This is similar to Paul basically saying over 250 people who saw the resurrected Christ were still alive.

1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Cr 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Cr 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Cr 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

That's a very dangerous thing to say if it wasn't true. It would be like Barack Obama saying over 250 family friends and relatives were able to verify he was born in Hawaii.

You are claiming that at 50-60 AD, it would be easy for people who lived in Corinth, Greece to verify a sighting that occurred 20-30 years ago in an undisclosed location by undisclosed 500 people?

 

[Hokulele]

So then people are idiots to buy well known Shelby Foote's 2 volume book on the Civil War because he didn't witness any of the civil war.

If Foote had only used a single (hearsay) source for the book, then yes, they would have been idiots.

It's a good thing that Foote didn't do that, though.

And why are you talking about extraordinary claims when I specifically said "non-supernatural claims".

Because you are trying to establish the fact of Christian martyrdom and, by tying it to a further claim that this was based on firsthand experience with a guy who came back from being dead, trying to establish that this is something beyond just a guy with loopy ideas being executed for heresy. Hence, it is an extraordinary claim.

Now, if you just want to make the claim that some people were executed for heresy because they held loopy ideas, I won't quibble.