Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[RoboTimbo]

I would be more tempted to believe in miracles if I saw DOC address the objections to his fallacies in this thread. That would be a true miracle.

 

[Cleon]

Actually the passage about James the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, was written by the historian Josephus.

Huh. Sounds like you don't consider Josephus to be all that reliable.

 

[Akhenaten]

So, you don't even know for certain whether James is the brother or cousin of Jesus, but you're sure that everything else in the New Testament is 100% accurate?

Actually the passage about James the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, was written by the historian Josephus.

<self-referencing link redacted lest we create a black hole>

That's got nothing to do with where the confusion arose in the first place though, does it, DOC? That would be just here, I reckon:

John 19:25 (King James Version)

²⁵Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.​

Do you know why this caused the ambiguity, DOC?

I do, and no doubt so do others, so you'll want to answer vewwy, vewwy carefully, won't you?

 

[RoboTimbo]

That's got nothing to do with where the confusion arose in the first place though, does it, DOC? That would be just here, I reckon:

John 19:25 (King James Version)

²⁵Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.​

Do you know why this caused the ambiguity, DOC?

I do, and no doubt so do others, so you'll want to answer vewwy, vewwy carefully, won't you?

DOC, please address this post.

 

[Akhenaten]

Fang you very much

 

[DOC]

But didn't Hegesippus (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. 2.23) describing the martyrdom of James of Jerusalem say that he was cast from the pinnacle of the Temple in 66CE, and when the fall did not kill him, he was clubbed to death?

So who's fibbing, DOC?

Eusebius says he was also stoned, so neither was fibbing. He was thrown off a building and that didn't kill him so they started to stone him and club him.

Quote from Eusebius from Wikis article on Jame the Just.


"Accordingly, the scribes and Pharisees

…threw down the just man… [and] began to stone him: for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned, and kneeled down, and said: "I beseech Thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

And, while they were thus stoning him to death, one of the priests, the sons of Rechab, the son of Rechabim, to whom testimony is borne by Jeremiah the prophet, began to cry aloud, saying: "Cease, what do ye? The just man is praying for us." But one among them, one of the fullers, took the staff with which he was accustomed to wring out the garments he dyed, and hurled it at the head of the just man.

And so he suffered martyrdom; and they buried him on the spot, and the pillar erected to his memory still remains, close by the temple"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Just

And it seems odd Eusebius would also write that a pillar was erected that still remains close by the temple. Why put that in there where people can verify if it is true or not if you are making it up.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

Actually the passage about James the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, was written by the historian Josephus.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6281273#post6281273

DOC, are you SURE you want to bring up Josephus again?

GB

 

[Aepervius]

I would be more tempted to believe in miracles if I saw DOC address the objections to his fallacies in this thread. That would be a true miracle.

That would litteraly make me drop my atheism, convert to christianity, go into a monestary, and live a life of prayer to the only one god and JC. Amen.

That about tell you how much chance I see DOC doing that.

 

[joobz]

Well James, the brother {some say cousin} of Jesus was not an official apostle, but being the first bishop of Jerusalem, he comes close.

As an analogy to your argument:

"Elvis was the King!"
"Do you have evidence that Elvis was the King?"
"No, but here's a picture of Roy Orbison. Does that help?"

 

[Akhenaten]

Here is what historian Josephus says about him:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:...

Josephus on the Death of James brother of Jesus, in 62 C.E. Josephus, Antiquities Book 20: chapter 9.

But didn't Hegesippus (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. 2.23) describing the martyrdom of James of Jerusalem say that he was cast from the pinnacle of the Temple in 66CE, and when the fall did not kill him, he was clubbed to death?

So who's fibbing, DOC?

Eusebius says he was also stoned, so neither was fibbing. He was thrown off a building and that didn't kill him so they started to stone him and club him.

Quote from Eusebius from Wikis article on Jame the Just.

"Accordingly, the scribes and Pharisees

…threw down the just man… [and] began to stone him: for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned, and kneeled down, and said: "I beseech Thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

And, while they were thus stoning him to death, one of the priests, the sons of Rechab, the son of Rechabim, to whom testimony is borne by Jeremiah the prophet, began to cry aloud, saying: "Cease, what do ye? The just man is praying for us." But one among them, one of the fullers, took the staff with which he was accustomed to wring out the garments he dyed, and hurled it at the head of the just man.

Even if we ignore the bit you left out where the dates are off by four years, we're still left with two completely different accounts of the same dude's coming to a sticky end, and that's the whole bloody point! Without some kind of corroborating evidence, there's no way of knowing if either of these accounts is even remotely true.

There are sources for some of these blokes being done in three or four times. When are you going to address Rincewind's post which deals with this subject?

And so he suffered martyrdom; and they buried him on the spot, and the pillar erected to his memory still remains, close by the temple"

According to Honest Akhmed the the tour guide???

Get real, DOC.

 

[joobz]

Eusebius says he was also stoned, so neither was fibbing. He was thrown off a building and that didn't kill him so they started to stone him and club him.

Quote from Eusebius from Wikis article on Jame the Just.


"Accordingly, the scribes and Pharisees

…threw down the just man… [and] began to stone him: for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned, and kneeled down, and said: "I beseech Thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

And, while they were thus stoning him to death, one of the priests, the sons of Rechab, the son of Rechabim, to whom testimony is borne by Jeremiah the prophet, began to cry aloud, saying: "Cease, what do ye? The just man is praying for us." But one among them, one of the fullers, took the staff with which he was accustomed to wring out the garments he dyed, and hurled it at the head of the just man.

And so he suffered martyrdom; and they buried him on the spot, and the pillar erected to his memory still remains, close by the temple"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Just

And it seems odd Eusebius would also write that a pillar was erected that still remains close by the temple. Why put that in there where people can verify if it is true or not if you are making it up.

DOC:
from the VERY WIKI ARTICLE YOU QUOTE!

Eusebius, while quoting Josephus' account, also records otherwise lost passages from Hegesippus (see links below), and Clement of Alexandria (Historia Ecclesiae, 2.23). Hegesippus' account varies somewhat from what Josephus reports, and may have been an attempt to reconcile the various accounts by combining them.

Do you notice that word?

You do understand that Eusebius is a different person from Hegesippus and Josephus, right?

All you did here was walk headlong into Akhenaten's argument. You need to read more carefully and think before you post.



ETA:
Oh and since when does "hurling a staff" equal "Clubbed to death"?
DOC, you are very generous with interpretation when you want to be, but not when it works against you. I wonder why that is?

 

[John Jones]

Eusebius says he was also stoned, so neither was fibbing. He was thrown off a building and that didn't kill him so they started to stone him and club him.

Quote from Eusebius from Wikis article on Jame the Just.


"Accordingly, the scribes and Pharisees

…threw down the just man… [and] began to stone him: for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned, and kneeled down, and said: "I beseech Thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

And, while they were thus stoning him to death, one of the priests, the sons of Rechab, the son of Rechabim, to whom testimony is borne by Jeremiah the prophet, began to cry aloud, saying: "Cease, what do ye? The just man is praying for us." But one among them, one of the fullers, took the staff with which he was accustomed to wring out the garments he dyed, and hurled it at the head of the just man.

And so he suffered martyrdom; and they buried him on the spot, and the pillar erected to his memory still remains, close by the temple"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Just

And it seems odd Eusebius would also write that a pillar was erected that still remains close by the temple. Why put that in there where people can verify if it is true or not if you are making it up.

Well, did anybody verify if it was true or not?

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

Eusebius says he was also stoned, so neither was fibbing. He was thrown off a building and that didn't kill him so they started to stone him and club him.

Quote from Eusebius from Wikis article on Jame the Just.


"Accordingly, the scribes and Pharisees

…threw down the just man… [and] began to stone him: for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned, and kneeled down, and said: "I beseech Thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

And, while they were thus stoning him to death, one of the priests, the sons of Rechab, the son of Rechabim, to whom testimony is borne by Jeremiah the prophet, began to cry aloud, saying: "Cease, what do ye? The just man is praying for us." But one among them, one of the fullers, took the staff with which he was accustomed to wring out the garments he dyed, and hurled it at the head of the just man.

And so he suffered martyrdom; and they buried him on the spot, and the pillar erected to his memory still remains, close by the temple"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Just

And it seems odd Eusebius would also write that a pillar was erected that still remains close by the temple. Why put that in there where people can verify if it is true or not if you are making it up.

I see you ignored the multiple disclaimers on the Wikipedia Page (as usual).

Not to mention that Eusebius (c. 263–339 CE) is no more reliable than any other Explicitly Christian Source with an agenda (i.e. Hegesippus), non-contemporaneous or otherwise.

Nor is there is nothing odd about making comments about a physical artifact that exists in one's own time. All the better to bamboozle the gullible.

GB

 

[carlitos]

Given some of their dogma, I actually like that the Roman Catholics "let you choose" whether James was the cousin or brother of Jesus. It's almost refreshing.

 

[DOC]

I would be more tempted to believe in miracles if I saw DOC address the objections to his fallacies in this thread. That would be a true miracle.

Another generalized statement. Why don't you just let the posts stand for themselves. And I have responded to posts that talk of fallacies.

Which specific post that talks of a fallacy do you want me to address the most and I will address it.

 

[Fiona]

You calling DOC gullible? Say it ain't so!

 

[carlitos]

This is a good point; too good to block ignore:

Here is what historian Josephus says about him:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:...

Josephus on the Death of James brother of Jesus, in 62 C.E. Josephus, Antiquities Book 20: chapter 9.

But didn't Hegesippus (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. 2.23) describing the martyrdom of James of Jerusalem say that he was cast from the pinnacle of the Temple in 66CE, and when the fall did not kill him, he was clubbed to death?

So who's fibbing, DOC?

Eusebius says he was also stoned, so neither was fibbing. He was thrown off a building and that didn't kill him so they started to stone him and club him.

Quote from Eusebius from Wikis article on Jame the Just.

"Accordingly, the scribes and Pharisees

…threw down the just man… [and] began to stone him: for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned, and kneeled down, and said: "I beseech Thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

And, while they were thus stoning him to death, one of the priests, the sons of Rechab, the son of Rechabim, to whom testimony is borne by Jeremiah the prophet, began to cry aloud, saying: "Cease, what do ye? The just man is praying for us." But one among them, one of the fullers, took the staff with which he was accustomed to wring out the garments he dyed, and hurled it at the head of the just man.

Even if we ignore the bit you left out where the dates are off by four years, we're still left with two completely different accounts of the same dude's coming to a sticky end, and that's the whole bloody point! Without some kind of corroborating evidence, there's no way of knowing if either of these accounts is even remotely true.

There are sources for some of these blokes being done in three or four times. When are you going to address Rincewind's post which deals with this subject?

And so he suffered martyrdom; and they buried him on the spot, and the pillar erected to his memory still remains, close by the temple"

According to Honest Akhmed the the tour guide???

Get real, DOC.

 

[joobz]

Another generalized statement. Why don't you just let the posts stand for themselves. And I have responded to posts that talk of fallacies.

Which specific post that talks of a fallacy do you want me to address the most and I will address it.

Another generalized statement. Why don't you let Robotimbo's posts stand for themselves.

 

[Akhenaten]

Another generalized statement. Why don't you just let the posts stand for themselves. And I have responded to posts that talk of fallacies.

Which specific post that talks of a fallacy do you want me to address the most and I will address it.

Another generalized statement. Why don't you let joobs' posts stand for themselves.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

You calling DOC gullible? Say it ain't so!

If the shoe fits...


GB