Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Elizabeth I]

Actually Paul the author of much of the NT stated Jesus appeared to him:

1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Cr 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Cr 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Cr 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Anything he stated, he stated in the Bible. Got any extra-Biblical evidence or is Akhenaten going to have to roll his wheel at you again?

But Ramsay must have believed it happened since he became a Christian.

Again with this? Are you ever going to get over this delusion that someone believing something is evidence for its truth?

 

[Cleon]

Fiction was almost non-existent at that time,

Untrue.

and people don't die or risk their lives for fiction that supposedly happened to someone they knew personally and could verify whether or not it happened.. If someone said my friend (whose funeral I attended a few days ago) has since risen from the dead and was seen walking around town, I"m not going to die for that fact (like the apostles did) unless I verify it.

This "logic" is tortuous.

the luxury to create fictional material was virtually non-existent,

That's phenomenally stupid. Creating fictional material does not require much in the way of "luxuries."

Of course, the entire line of reasoning is easily disproven by simply pointing at some evidence of the existence of fiction in pre-Biblical times.

 

[Helen]

The revelation that there was almost no fiction at the time of the NT still has me reeling. Much of what I was taught at university is a lie, in other words... Just as I always suspected; they were feeding us lies, man!

But I would still like some evidence for this, DOC. Any time you like, mind you. Perhaps when you have supplied evidence that the writers of the NT told the truth?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Hey, guys, could you take it easy? I'm still on page 212 and I'd like to be able to catch up to this farce some time.


To not be off topic, I'm currently playing a song called In the absence of God. I consider it fool-proof evidence against the existence of a deity.

 

[amb]

Fiction was almost non-existent at that time, and people don't die or risk their lives for fiction that supposedly happened to someone they knew personally and could verify whether or not it happened.. If someone said my friend (whose funeral I attended a few days ago) has since risen from the dead and was seen walking around town, I"m not going to die for that fact (like the apostles did) unless I verify it.

And here is some info about fiction at that time from the article- Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ: by Christopher Louis Lang

"Many were illiterate, few could read, much less write, and paper or parchment (leather) to write on was expensive. The incentive to fabricate was not as it is today. In other words, The National Enquirer, could never have been published at this time. A high regard was given to writing and the luxury to create fictional material was virtually non-existent, for instance there was no such thing as a novel or a newspaper, although there were artistic writings such as poetry. The Bible however, is a much different kind of literature. It was not written as a poem or story, although it also contains poetry. It was for the most part written as history and is intended to communicate truth throughout."

http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/doubt.htm

Also there were 9 independent New Testament writers, we're not talking about 1 writer here. That's a lot of people to be out and about searching for the truth. You might be able to fool one of them but fooling all 9 is highly unlikely (especially someone like gospel writer Luke who was highly praised by Sir William M. Ramsay).

What about the works of Plato. Fiction did exist long before 2000 years ago.

 

[Mojo]

Okey dokey. Where are all the Jesus coins then? Jesus's Gallic Wars? Veni, vidi, medeor?

All right, that wasn't fair: we aren't talking about Jesus; we're talking about the gospel writers. Where are all the evangelist coins (the complete collector's set)?

How about the spoons? Explain that!

 

[Mojo]

Fiction was almost non-existent at that time, and people don't die or risk their lives for fiction that supposedly happened to someone they knew personally and could verify whether or not it happened.. If someone said my friend (whose funeral I attended a few days ago) has since risen from the dead and was seen walking around town, I"m not going to die for that fact (like the apostles did) unless I verify it.

And here is some info about fiction at that time from the article- Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ: by Christopher Louis Lang

"Many were illiterate, few could read, much less write, and paper or parchment (leather) to write on was expensive. The incentive to fabricate was not as it is today. In other words, The National Enquirer, could never have been published at this time. A high regard was given to writing and the luxury to create fictional material was virtually non-existent, for instance there was no such thing as a novel or a newspaper, although there were artistic writings such as poetry. The Bible however, is a much different kind of literature. It was not written as a poem or story, although it also contains poetry. It was for the most part written as history and is intended to communicate truth throughout."

http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/doubt.htm

Also there were 9 independent New Testament writers, we're not talking about 1 writer here. That's a lot of people to be out and about searching for the truth. You might be able to fool one of them but fooling all 9 is highly unlikely (especially someone like gospel writer Luke who was highly praised by Sir William M. Ramsay).

What do you do when the Iliad is proven right on something?

 

[amb]

Christ was alive after the Resurrection.

You don't think that after such an earth shattering event the whole of the ancient world would have known about it?
It's only in some parts of the N/T, nowhere else. Philo who was alive at that time and wrote a history of the Jews is silent on the matter, as is Josephus and all writings from that era.

 

[A Lurker]

Did anybody ask you for signatures? What has this got to do with anything?

What about seals? Can we ask for Julius Caesar's seals, which he was more likely to use than signatures anyway?

Also; more evidence for Caesar than Jesus;

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/exist.html

You'll notice an awful lot of the arguments sound very familiar... this is because DOC is arguing from a set of standard apologetics he's learned by rote, but never really understood so he can't defend them, just repeat.

 

[Mojo]

...DOC is arguing from a set of standard apologetics he's learned by rote, but never really understood so he can't defend them, just repeat.

Which is why we were able to play DOC bingo earlier in the thread.

 

[cj.23]

What about seals? Can we ask for Julius Caesar's seals, which he was more likely to use than signatures anyway?

Did the Romans use seals? Pompey collected them, that I know, and I happen to own a Roman seal ring- well it is a seal ring with a Roman design, I just always assumed it was later, perhaps 17th century. I did not think they did, but I may well be very wrong

cj x

 

[Agatha]

This is incredible. I have been internetless in the South of France for just over a fortnight; I return to a cold and wet Blighty to find that this thread still has yet to produce any evidence of the veracity of the events in the NT.

However, DOC's suggestion that "Fiction was almost non-existent at that time" is one of the funniest things in the thread. Wrong, but funny.

 

[refamat]

This is incredible. I have been internetless in the South of France for just over a fortnight; I return to a cold and wet Blighty to find that this thread still has yet to produce any evidence of the veracity of the events in the NT.

However, DOC's suggestion that "Fiction was almost non-existent at that time" is one of the funniest things in the thread. Wrong, but funny.

are you saying there wasn't a wedding where they drank all the wine? It'd be a miracle if they hadn't though

 

[Marduk]

Did the Romans use seals? Pompey collected them, that I know, and I happen to own a Roman seal ring- well it is a seal ring with a Roman design, I just always assumed it was later, perhaps 17th century. I did not think they did, but I may well be very wrong

cj x

The Romans developed the idea of the signature seal ring which was started by the Egyptians, they are quite rare, it became traditional to destroy them on their owners death. This still occours today where the destruction of the Popes signet ring is part of the tradition of clearing the way for a new pope

 

[A Lurker]

The Romans developed the idea of the signature seal ring which was started by the Egyptians, they are quite rare, it became traditional to destroy them on their owners death. This still occours today where the destruction of the Popes signet ring is part of the tradition of clearing the way for a new pope

Indeed, although I only mentioned it to illustrate yet another of DOC's deliberate historical ignorances; he's read or heard somewhere from a Christian source that "we don't have Caesar's signature" as an argument, and never stopped to ask himself whether every society throughout history used or valued signatures as a form of identification. And needless to say, they haven't... which means we need to, and indeed do look at how else we verify the authenticity of a historical person. Which in turn makes a mockery of the argument that Jesus is as historical as Julius Caesar, because the Roman's used an awful lot of other ways to identify the person and the authority of public figures, not including letters and eye witness testimony, none of which have survived for Jesus either, but have for Caesar.

 

[John Jones]

The Romans developed the idea of the signature seal ring which was started by the Egyptians, they are quite rare, it became traditional to destroy them on their owners death. This still occours today where the destruction of the Popes signet ring is part of the tradition of clearing the way for a new pope

So you're saying that we have no signature seal ring for Jesus... because it was destroyed ... therefore God?

I'm starting to get the picture now.

 

[Simon39759]

Many other scholars disagree with your unsourced statement.

And the NT writers didn't seem to have any problem remembering Caiaphas.

Ho; don't be a hypocrite.
We went all over that multiple times and the academic consensus, outside of the lying apologists circle, is that the gospel was written after the temple's destruction.
Your denial of this is based exclusively on your attempt to convince that the gospels were primary sources so that you can pretend they are reliable.

 

[Rincewind]

Hi DOC, IIRC you mentioned that because the apostles were martyred, that somehow shows that the Gospel authors wrote the truth.

Now it's been about 300 years since this thread started, so somebody may have already done this - if so I apologise for the duplication.

I suspect that, as has been mentioned ad nauseam, they either wrote the truth as they believed it, or wrote the stories to support their new religion regardless of the truth - to make a point, in other words.

However, if you’re going to use the martyrdom of the apostles as evidence that the unknown authors of the gospels wrote the truth, then I think you need to ensure that the data pertaining to said martyrdom is “real”.

So here’s a summary of what I found on Wiki:

The original team:
Peter: early church tradition says he probably died by upside-down crucifixion in Rome, AD 64.

James, son of Zebedee: apparently beheaded in AD 44 (only recorded in Acts).

John, son of Zebedee: believed to have died of natural causes, aged about 94.

Andrew, Peter’s brother: said to have been crucified at Patras in Achaea.

Philip: According to legend, crucified upside-down in Hieropolis, AD 54. Another legend has him beheaded in the same city. The Catholic Church regards the accounts of his death as legendary - there’s no reputable source for his death.

Bartholomew: According to one account beheaded, but a more popular tradition has him flayed alive then crucified. Either at Derbend on the Caspian Sea or at Albanopolis in Armenia.

Matthew: Said to have died a natural death either in Ethiopia or Macedonia. However, both the Catholic & Orthodox Church traditions hold that he was martyred - apparently in AD 60 by a halberd.

Thomas: according to Syriac tradition, stoned then killed with a lance in Mylapore, Madras, AD 72.

James, son of Alphaeus: Tradition holds that he was beaten to death with a club after being stones and crucified in Ostrakine, Lower Egypt.

Jude: according to Armenian tradition, crucified in Beirut, Lebanon in AD 65.

Simon the Zealot: from various traditions:
Crucified in Samaria, AD 74.
Sawn in half at Suanir, Persia.
Martyred at Weriosphora in Caucasian Iberia.
Died peacefully at Edessa.
Martyred in Caistor (in modern day Lincolnshire)
Also, killed in a Jewish revolt against the Romans.
Busy, busy, busy, huh?

Judas Iscariot: according to various accounts:
Committed suicide by hanging.
Fell down and burst open.
Stoned to death by the other eleven apostles.
After his body became grossly swollen, crushed by a chariot.

And off the substitutes’ bench:
Matthias: Crucified in Colchis, or stoned & beheaded in Jerusalem. Oh, he apparently also died of old age in Jerusalem.

So the key words, in virtually every case, are “according to tradition/legend”.

According to these data, there’s no real EVIDENCE that any of the apostles were martyred - it could easily be fiction written for religious political purposes.

Many of these stories are also highly contradictory - much like the gospels, eh?

‘Kay?

 

[Simon39759]

Hi DOC, IIRC you mentioned that because the apostles were martyred, that somehow shows that the Gospel authors wrote the truth.
Now it's been about 300 years since this thread started, so somebody may have already done this - if so I apologise for the duplication.
I suspect that, as has been mentioned ad nauseam, they either wrote the truth as they believed it, or wrote the stories to support their new religion regardless of the truth - to make a point, in other words.
However, if you’re going to use the martyrdom of the apostles as evidence that the unknown authors of the gospels wrote the truth, then I think you need to ensure that the data pertaining to said martyrdom is “real”.
So here’s a summary of what I found on Wiki:
The original team:
Peter: early church tradition says he probably died by upside-down crucifixion in Rome, AD 64.
James, son of Zebedee: apparently beheaded in AD 44 (only recorded in Acts).
John, son of Zebedee: believed to have died of natural causes, aged about 94.
Andrew, Peter’s brother: said to have been crucified at Patras in Achaea.
Philip: According to legend, crucified upside-down in Hieropolis, AD 54. Another legend has him beheaded in the same city. The Catholic
Matthew: Said to have died a natural death either in Ethiopia or Macedonia. However, both the Catholic & Orthodox Church traditions hold that he was martyred - apparently in AD 60 by a halberd.
Thomas: according to Syriac tradition, stoned then killed with a lance in Mylapore, Madras, AD 72.
James, son of Alphaeus: Tradition holds that he was beaten to death with a club after being stones and crucified in Ostrakine, Lower Egypt.
Jude: according to Armenian tradition, crucified in Beirut, Lebanon in AD 65.
Simon the Zealot: from various traditions:
Crucified in Samaria, AD 74.
Sawn in half at Suanir, Persia.
Martyred at Weriosphora in Caucasian Iberia.
Died peacefully at Edessa.
Martyred in Caistor (in modern day Lincolnshire)
Also, killed in a Jewish revolt against the Romans.
Busy, busy, busy, huh?
Judas Iscariot: according to various accounts:
Committed suicide by hanging.
Fell down and burst open.
Stoned to death by the other eleven apostles.
After his body became grossly swollen, crushed by a chariot.
And off the substitutes’ bench:
Matthias: Crucified in Colchis, or stoned & beheaded in Jerusalem. Oh, he apparently also died of old age in Jerusalem.
So the key words, in virtually every case, are “according to tradition/legend”.
According to these data, there’s no real EVIDENCE that any of the apostles were martyred - it could easily be fiction written for religious political purposes.
Many of these stories are also highly contradictory - much like the gospels, eh?
‘Kay?

Well, we know that the New Testament is true because of all the apostles that were martyred.
And we know of these apostles' death because it says so in the act of Apostles in the New testament.



It is just sad, Doc's school was all out of circular reasoning on the day of the lab that was supposed to cover the subject, during his infamous logic class...

 

[Cactus Wren]

1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

In the Salem witch trials this was called "spectral evidence" -- there might be a dozen witnesses that Goody X had been in a particular location miles away from Witness A, but Witness A's assertion that Goody X's spectre had bitten or struck her would be taken as evidence of Goody X's guilt.

Witness A's hallucinations of someone who's demonstrably elsewhere are not evidence.

Paul's hallucinations of a dead man are not evidence.