Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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DOC said:
It's impossible to prove who wrote ancient writings. Remember we don't even have a signature of Julius Caesar? ....
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You're going to start this signature nonsense again?

Are you doubting the existence of Julius Caesar?
 
DOC said:
It's impossible to prove who wrote ancient writings. Remember we don't even have a signature of Julius Caesar? But as pointed out in this thread there is evidence that Matthew and John wrote their gospels. And certainly Sir William M. Ramsay believes Luke wrote his.




Same can be said for Alexander the Great who conquered much of the known world including Palestine. You believe he existed don't you.
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I'm not claiming Alexander existed, or that he's a god. Nice example of goal-shifting, and shifting the burden of proof/evidence.




Do you have any evidence for why we know the new testament writers told the truth?
 
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DOC said:
Actually Paul the author of much of the NT stated Jesus appeared to him:

1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Cr 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Cr 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Cr 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
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But neither Jefferson nor Ramsay believed the bible provided evidence that it had happened.
 
DOC said:
Actually Paul the author of much of the NT stated Jesus appeared to him:

1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Cr 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Cr 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Cr 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
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Kewl. Now you just have to prove that this Paul feller existed. Got an autograph, do you?


ETA: You'll also need some independent corroboration. I guess we'll need to see some signatures from those witnesses too. That's going to keep you busy.


ETA more: Who's this Chromium bloke, BTW? Sounds like a Greek, although we have no evidence that Greece existed, so you'll need to provide that as well.
 
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DOC said:
zooterkin said:
Do you remember how utterly irrelevant that is?
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Maybe irrelevant to you but not to me.
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Are we to infer then that the entire purpose of this thread is to enable you to provide evidence that only you find relevant, in order to convince yourself of what you think you already know?

And it's taken almost 15,000 posts with still no sign of success?

How embarrassing.
 
Fiona said:
And once again we need to hear why not.
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If we have no signature for the most powerful man in the world at the time (Julius Casesar -- who also wrote a book), why should you expect to have signatures of the authors of the Gospels. Also the gospel writers had to worry about getting killed for their writings whereas Caesar didn't.

If you had a signature of Caesar during his life, you'd think you'd save it and pass it on to your family members. If you had a letter personally signed by Barack Obama would you throw it away after reading it.
 
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DOC said:
But Ramsay must have believed it happened since he became a Christian.
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You still don't understand what your erstwhile hero understood, DOC. Some things, if they are to be believed in, must be taken on faith.

That your own faith is so weak that it needs evidence in its place is not really something that this Forum can help you with.
 
DOC said:
If we have no signature for the most powerful man in the world at the time (Julius Casesar -- who also wrote a book), why should you expect to have signatures of the authors of the Gospels. ...
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Stop this silly strawman argument about signatures. Stop it now!
 
Theree
DOC said:
If we have no signature for the most powerful man in the world at the time (Julius Casesar -- who also wrote a book), why should you expect to have signatures of the authors of the Gospels. Also the gospel writers had to worry about getting killed for their writings whereas Caesar didn't.

If you had a signature of Caesar during his life, you'd think you'd save it and pass it on to your family members. If you had a letter personally signed by Barack Obama would you throw it away after reading it.
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There are methods of determining authorship outside of signatures.
 
DOC said:
If we have no signature for the most powerful man in the world at the time (Julius Casesar -- who also wrote a book), why should you expect to have signatures of the authors of the Gospels. Also the gospel writers had to worry about getting killed for their writings whereas Caesar didn't.

If you had a signature of Caesar during his life, you'd think you'd save it and pass it on to your family members. If you had a letter personally signed by Barack Obama would you throw it away after reading it.
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Okey dokey. Where are all the Jesus coins then? Jesus's Gallic Wars? Veni, vidi, medeor?

All right, that wasn't fair: we aren't talking about Jesus; we're talking about the gospel writers. Where are all the evangelist coins (the complete collector's set)?
 
DOC said:
Fiction was almost non-existent at that time, and people don't die or risk their lives for fiction that supposedly happened to someone they knew personally and could verify whether or not it happened.. If someone said my friend (whose funeral I attended a few days ago) has since risen from the dead and was seen walking around town, I"m not going to die for that fact (like the apostles did) unless I verify it.

And here is some info about fiction at that time from the article- Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ: by Christopher Louis Lang

"Many were illiterate, few could read, much less write, and paper or parchment (leather) to write on was expensive. The incentive to fabricate was not as it is today. In other words, The National Enquirer, could never have been published at this time. A high regard was given to writing and the luxury to create fictional material was virtually non-existent, for instance there was no such thing as a novel or a newspaper, although there were artistic writings such as poetry. The Bible however, is a much different kind of literature. It was not written as a poem or story, although it also contains poetry. It was for the most part written as history and is intended to communicate truth throughout."

http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/doubt.htm

Also there were 9 independent New Testament writers, we're not talking about 1 writer here. That's a lot of people to be out and about searching for the truth. You might be able to fool one of them but fooling all 9 is highly unlikely (especially someone like gospel writer Luke who was highly praised by Sir William M. Ramsay).
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This is one of the craziest arguments I've ever read.

1. The oldest known written piece of anything is the epic of gilgamesh, a fictional story.
2. The original gospels were written in greek.
3. Ancient greece was FAMOUS for their plays, stories,... they knew how to tell a good story. These were written down.
4. Anyhone who could read greek would know this background literature.
5. Many ancient greek plays ended with a plot device called deus exmachina. The jesus resurrection story patterns this device quite well.
 
DOC said:
If we have no signature for the most powerful man in the world at the time (Julius Casesar -- who also wrote a book), why should you expect to have signatures of the authors of the Gospels. Also the gospel writers had to worry about getting killed for their writings whereas Caesar didn't.

If you had a signature of Caesar during his life, you'd think you'd save it and pass it on to your family members. If you had a letter personally signed by Barack Obama would you throw it away after reading it.
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Did anybody ask you for signatures? What has this got to do with anything?
 
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