Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes
If she's guilty, why tell the cops she knew the toilet was dirty and invite the question of why she didn't flush it? Why not let them find it on their own, and tell them she didn't notice it because that's not the bathroom she and Meredith ordinarily use?

That could be asked about the broken window too. If she was present during the crime and staged the scene afterward, why not just let them find it all? I think it is because she/they wanted to be the ones to 'find' the scene so they wouldn't be suspect(s). If, that is, they were even involved.
 
Originally Posted by Mary_H
It wasn't simply a matter of flushing -- she would have had to clean the toilet, too. Ick. Possibly she was hoping that whoever was responsible would follow up.

Now that makes sense - especially knowing my own 21 and 23 year olds.
 
Most of her clothing had been removed, but it was all there in her room and it was the same clothing she had been wearing that day.

So Mignini would have us believe that she laid in bed for 2 1/2 hours playing with her phone without changing into clothes more confortable.
 
I am not anti- or pro-AK; at this point I am really trying to decide. I'm just sayin' we do have that other testimony.

One of my biggest problems with the whole case is, it seems to me, to be pro-AK, you must throw out a serious amount of evidence. Mistaken witnesses, shoddy police work, incompetent lab techs, etc. I have a hard time reconciling the fact that all of those people would have to have been mistaken, incompetent, lying, etc.


I am not trying to imply it is unbelievable the lab testing could be erroneous. In fact, I believe the knife had absolutely nothing to do with the crime. What I find difficult to fathom is for all the lab/DNA evidence to be erroneous in addition to all the (credible) witnesses being mistaken, in addition to the several versions of alibis, in addition to all the other ‘happenstances’ that would have had to have occurred for those kids to be innocent.

The over-zealous prosecution is not lost on me; I know it happens (Duke, for one.) But it is the numerous other details, each of which on their own can be explained away but in toto are difficult to swallow.

Just one of those instances which troubles me is this: in Amanda’s own statement she states she noticed the feces when she put the hair dryer back in the bathroom. Who in the world would see that and NOT flush it? Why would you just leave that there… unless you wanted it to be present for a reason? It is the accumulation of all these little nagging details which bother me.


Hi PDiGirolamo,

I personally think that way you will never see through a wrong conviction, don't get me wrong, you're entitled to your own opinion and I don't want to persuade you. I just think these sort of elements you have here speaking against them, this "mountain of evidence", you have that in almost every wrong conviction. After all, the prosecution in all these cases is capable of convincing a whole jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendants are guilty. You can't achieve that with a gut feeling that they did it, the prosecution has to make a convincing case, and that's what they try to do.

It's easy in the end when it is finally clear that somebody is innocent and the real perpetrator has been catched, to say; of course, they're innocent, the confession was coerced, the forensics were misinterpreted and the eyewitnesses lying. When the case is all solved, it's easy to aknowledge that.

But if you want to see through it before, you have to be capable to see beyond those things; the contradictory statements, weird behaviour, the eyewitnesses, and not letting you stop and impress by it. One has to look at the whole picture and really ask themselves, if the prosecution theory makes any sense.

For example; why weren't all these things found you would expect if they had committed the murder? Traces of them in the victims room (except for that bra-clasp which is highly qustionable), wounds from a fight on their body, no motive, no prior history of violent behaviour, why didn't Amanda flee? (a murdress isn't impressed if she is allowed to leave the country, if she want's to leave, she does.) Then, why didn't she take herself a lawyer just as her flatmates did? Why did she accuse Lumumba when she knew he had an alibi? Why didn't she accuse Rudy if she wanted to frame him anyway? Why did she place herself at the crime scene if she wanted to deflect attention from herself?

What is gained by the statement about the door always beeing locked? If she wanted to body to be found later, they could just have called the police later. Why would she carry a kitchen knife for self protection, who does such a thing, how plausible is that? Why would she clean only the blade of the knife, but not the handle, so the dna on the handle supposedly shows how she held it while murdering Meredith. If so, why wasn't there any blood found on the handle? Why should we believe this knife is the murder weapon anyway, when it didn't match two of the three wounds and the bloody imprint on the bedsheet and was tested negative for blood. And while there is a reasonalbe scenario lacking, why that knife would even be at the cottage to play part in a not premeditated murder. Then the dna result is being highly disputed anyway, is it even Meredith's? And if so, didn't it more likely result from contamination, given the fact that the the knife shall have been cleaned so thouroughly, that no blood could have been detected, so it wouldn't really make sense for the dna to be still there. Bear in mind the procedure Stefanoni applied raises the possibilty of contamination enormously.

If the dna on the bra clasp is proof of murder why weren't the other people whose dna was on it too, identified and put into jail? How do we even know for sure it's Raffaele's dna, when it was in the low copy range and mixed with other dna, which leaves it often to the experts discretion to decide if the dna is comaptible (there was an article posted here about that. You can give the same sample to different experts and they will come up with totally different results. This is a problem with scant dna samples and especially when they're mixed too, like in this case).

For me an internal logic is comletely lacking in the whole prosecution theory.
 
Is this actually the source of the "rubber gloves in Sollecito's apartment" rumors? The police video of the discovery pays particular attention to the discarded gloves until they start unwrapping the wad of paper and tape found under them in the same bin and recognize what it is. :D

I don't believe the "rubber gloves in Sollectio's apartment" is a rumor. Charlie Wilkes has stated prior that there were a pair of rubber gloves recovered from Sollecito's flat. The Massei Motivations also mentions the rubber gloves on page 194 (from the PMF English translation):

The November 13 inspection in the apartment used by Raffaele Sollecito did not yield any significant results. Various samples were taken of a pair of rubber gloves and a mixed result was obtained: Sollecito plus Knox;...
 
Meredith's computer

So Mignini would have us believe that she laid in bed for 2 1/2 hours playing with her phone without changing into clothes more confortable.

That's a very good point. And it makes me think that recovering Meredith's drive, if it has not already been done, is important. If Meredith came home, there is a good chance she would have used her computer to check her email or something like that. Activity at a certain time would indicate a later time of attack, whereas the lack of any activity would be more consistent with an earlier time of attack.
 
So Mignini would have us believe that she laid in bed for 2 1/2 hours playing with her phone without changing into clothes more confortable.
Not only did she not change her cloths, Meredith didn't call home and didn't text any friends. (Reportedly normal behavior for her on most evenings.) Neither did she do her school report nor take care of her wet laundry in the washer. She didn't sleep either because she was "playing with her phone".
 
If you are playing with your cell phone anyway

So Mignini would have us believe that she laid in bed for 2 1/2 hours playing with her phone without changing into clothes more confortable.

Playing with her phone and yet not calling home, as she did regularly? It just makes no sense!
 
KNOX AS 'BYSTANDER'

Could I add to this that Knox's lawyer threaten to walk off the case if she changed her story again. She would also have had to face her family, which would be difficult to say the least. There would also be the worry that if she told the truth, RG and RS would have testified against her .... claiming innocence may have seemed the least bad option.

You really believe that Amanda is taking 26 years in prison for a crime she didn't commit simply to... what? Protect Rafaelle, her boyfriend of one week? I think you should re-read her "statements" from that interrogation and count all the logical fallacies. It's clear that those statements in conjunction with her trial testimony show a hypothetical scenario conjured by the police - not Amanda - in which she was there that night.

When RS called the police, he twice said that nothing had been taken from the cottage, when he couldn't possibly have known if he was not involved?.

But he was wrong, wasn't he, Kevin? There was cash, cards, keys and phones taken. Funny that 400 dollars was never found on Amanda or Raf. It couldn't possibly have been Rudy, whose DNA was on the purse and who fled the country, eventually running out of money again days later.

Given that they were both undoubtably present at the scene, there are some indications that Knox was telling the truth about being in the kitchen:

I think you may find some doubt about that on here.

1. There was only physical evidence of RS and RG in the murder room.

It doesn't seem strange to you that each piece of forensics evidence, and even most of the circumstantial evidence against Amanda and Raf comes with some sort of glaring caveat? Unlike the evidence against Rudy which is cut and dry and has no caveats.

5. Knox took the stand, did she do this knowing that she was the 'least guilty'?. I listened to the tapes of her testimony, she was very convincing explaining that there was no bad feeling between her and the victim. I got shouted down for saying this, but that is how the court saw it as well. She was not convincing at all about not being present at the scene.

Could elaborate on what was not convincing?
 
Where are the keys and the knife Alessi's brother supposedly had him bury? I don't see them being introduced as new evidence in the appeals summaries Bruce Fisher posted. They want the judge to hear the Alessi story but as soon as the judge asks about these two crucial items it will be an obvious wash.
So where are these things? Do they exist? Were they unearthed? Will the defense seriously try to introduce this story and then just say they didn't bother to go get them?

It's funny how nobody had a response to this! Well, what do you guys think?
 
Hmm, just read that the washing machine could have been one that is both a washer and dryer in the same machine. Does anyone know what kind of machine this one was?
 
So Mignini would have us believe that she laid in bed for 2 1/2 hours playing with her phone without changing into clothes more confortable.


Or calling her mother, or putting her laundry in the dryer.
 
So what you are saying is that based on your technical knowledge and experience you believe that the Italian LE must have intentionally damaged these drives.

Do you believe that they did this prior to determining the contents of the drives, or afterward?

You are inferring more than what I meant, which is simply that I am mystified as to how this could have happened. Hard drives are protected by diodes, so you can't fry the controller just by jamming a plug in backwards. The only way I can imagine doing it is if I modified a caddy to feed the drive high voltage.

My experience is limited to consumer hardware. Maybe these guys were using specialized hardware without knowing what they were doing. But why did they continue after damaging the first drive?

If you have a theory as to what happened, I'd be interested to hear it.
 
The court inquiry mentions the possibility of incompatible voltages. If the write blocker interface kit came with an external power supply that was wired for 110v and plugging it into 220 somehow didn't fry the supply but fed excessive voltages to the drive, it could quickly render the drive unusable.

Mere incompetence could account for taking the new kit out of the box and testing it on the first of the evidence drives. A cautious person would always verify that they knew what they were doing using expendable materials before working with the non-replaceable evidence drives.

To proceed to destroy three drives in succession before getting the clue that they were doing something wrong rises to the level of criminal stupidity if not outright intent.

Regardless of how stupid they acted, unless they intentionally destroyed the drives in order to make the content unaccessible, the data can be fully recovered by simply swapping the fried logic cards with an identical card from another drive. I've done this myself multiple times.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1514448cc188094a31.jpg[/qimg]I've also intentionally rendered many drives unreadable

You can't always get away with swapping a board:

http://www.essdatarecovery.com/parts_exchange.asp

I think that is what Professor Bernache tried to do, and it worked just well enough on Amanda's drive to spin up the disk and permanently scramble the files.

Hard drives come with a virtual geometry determined by the controller, which can vary within a single model.

I am told that Italian grid power is mighty hard on electronics, and that may have something to do with what happened in this case. Still, it's hard to fathom.

If you have swapped boards, then you must have run across drives with dead boards. I never have. Every drive I have ever had to rescue was one that still had a good controller, but was unreadable because of bad sectors. I use Testdisk and, if that fails, a raw disk editor to recover photos etc.
 
The court inquiry mentions the possibility of incompatible voltages. If the write blocker interface kit came with an external power supply that was wired for 110v and plugging it into 220 somehow didn't fry the supply but fed excessive voltages to the drive, it could quickly render the drive unusable.

Mere incompetence could account for taking the new kit out of the box and testing it on the first of the evidence drives. A cautious person would always verify that they knew what they were doing using expendable materials before working with the non-replaceable evidence drives.

To proceed to destroy three drives in succession before getting the clue that they were doing something wrong rises to the level of criminal stupidity if not outright intent.

Regardless of how stupid they acted, unless they intentionally destroyed the drives in order to make the content unaccessible, the data can be fully recovered by simply swapping the fried logic cards with an identical card from another drive. I've done this myself multiple times.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1514448cc188094a31.jpg[/qimg]I've also intentionally rendered many drives unreadable

I have read, but unfortunately can't find a source immediately to hand, that the defence and/or the appeal team requested that the drives be shipped to the manufacturer so that exactly this procedure could be performed and the data on the drives recovered. However the police have refused to allow this to be carried out.

It's hard to see how refusing to allow the drives to be repaired is consistent with wanting the truth about the case to be established. If you've got nothing to hide, as the saying goes, you've got nothing to be afraid of.
 
So Mignini would have us believe that she laid in bed for 2 1/2 hours playing with her phone without changing into clothes more confortable.

She was dressed in comfortable clothing. It's harder to explain why she didn't make any further attempt to call her sick mother, who she was worried about, on a quiet evening that would have been perfect for a nice chat.

It's also hard to explain how she lounged around in her room for that length of time without digesting her meal.

The weight of evidence, including the unflushed toilet, the aborted phone call, and the undigested dinner, suggests she walked in on an ambush.
 
...........For example; why weren't all these things found you would expect if they had committed the murder? Traces of them in the victims room (except for that bra-clasp which is highly qustionable), wounds from a fight on their body, no motive, no prior history of violent behaviour, why didn't Amanda flee? (a murdress isn't impressed if she is allowed to leave the country, if she want's to leave, she does.) Then, why didn't she take herself a lawyer just as her flatmates did? Why did she accuse Lumumba when she knew he had an alibi? Why didn't she accuse Rudy if she wanted to frame him anyway? Why did she place herself at the crime scene if she wanted to deflect attention from herself?

What is gained by the statement about the door always beeing locked? If she wanted to body to be found later, they could just have called the police later. Why would she carry a kitchen knife for self protection, who does such a thing, how plausible is that? Why would she clean only the blade of the knife, but not the handle, so the dna on the handle supposedly shows how she held it while murdering Meredith. If so, why wasn't there any blood found on the handle? Why should we believe this knife is the murder weapon anyway, when it didn't match two of the three wounds and the bloody imprint on the bedsheet and was tested negative for blood. And while there is a reasonalbe scenario lacking, why that knife would even be at the cottage to play part in a not premeditated murder. Then the dna result is being highly disputed anyway, is it even Meredith's? And if so, didn't it more likely result from contamination, given the fact that the the knife shall have been cleaned so thouroughly, that no blood could have been detected, so it wouldn't really make sense for the dna to be still there. Bear in mind the procedure Stefanoni applied raises the possibilty of contamination enormously.

If the dna on the bra clasp is proof of murder why weren't the other people whose dna was on it too, identified and put into jail? How do we even know for sure it's Raffaele's dna, when it was in the low copy range and mixed with other dna, which leaves it often to the experts discretion to decide if the dna is comaptible (there was an article posted here about that. You can give the same sample to different experts and they will come up with totally different results. This is a problem with scant dna samples and especially when they're mixed too, like in this case).

For me an internal logic is comletely lacking in the whole prosecution theory.


Excellent list of important, pertinent questions, Rhea.
 
It's funny how nobody had a response to this! Well, what do you guys think?

I think the defense is bringing this up not because they believe Alessi, they are bringing it up to show the prosecution was looking at this case with blinders. They had tunnel vision when looking at Knox and refused to investigate anything that would prove innocence or could be used against the prosecution. They are using that to show that the prosecution viewed Knox/Sollecito as the murderers before they even had evidence and even when the evidence pointed in a different direction they refused to accept it.
Not all of it is Mignini's fault. The Italian scientifica and investigators shoulder some of the blame.
 
So what you are saying is that based on your technical knowledge and experience you believe that the Italian LE must have intentionally damaged these drives.

Do you believe that they did this prior to determining the contents of the drives, or afterward?

Well they where downloading stuff, surfing the interent, and viewing Sollecito's movies. So there is motive for destroying the harddrives on purpose. If that would have happened in anywhere else in the world they would have gotten fired. Instead they give medals in Perugia for that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom