Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Cleon]

Forrest Gump and Steamboat Willie are not real people and never had their bones dug up like Caiaphas so I don't believe the analogies apply.

*facepalm*

No, DOC. You're pissing the point. Again. Stunningly.

Forest Gump is fiction. It mentions real people. Like JFK and Nixon.
Therefore, the fact that the NT mentions real people does not mean it's not fiction.

 

[Lucian]

I think DOC believes his forte is logic.

It's possible that it actually is.

Why did you have to put this idea in my mind? It's been haunting me all day.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Forrest Gump and Steamboat Willie are not real people and never had their bones dug up like Caiaphas so I don't believe the analogies apply.

Way to miss the point. Do you have to work at it to do stuff like that?

 

[joobz]

Many other scholars disagree with your unsourced statement.

And the NT writers didn't seem to have any problem remembering Caiaphas.

And, many other scholars disagree with your unsourced claims of other scholars.

 

[joobz]

Forrest Gump and Steamboat Willie are not real people and never had their bones dug up like Caiaphas so I don't believe the analogies apply.

And you would be wrong. Forest Gump is a perfect analogy as it refers to a fictional character (forest gump) who had supposed interactions with real people.

Now, Like Kmortis, I do not have a problem believing Jesus was real. What he sees, Hokulele Sees, Elizabeth I sees, Cleon sees, Lucian sees, zooterkin, Akhenaten, Simon, Carlitos, ... practically everyone sees, but you..is that NONE of the evidence you have presented demonstrates that 1.) The new testament writers told the truth and/or 2.) That jesus was divine.

 

[John Jones]

Many other scholars disagree with your unsourced statement.

Which many scholars? How would they disagree with an unsourced statement, fer christs sake?

 

[Akhenaten]

Many other scholars disagree with your unsourced statement.

And your sources are?

And the NT writers didn't seem to have any problem remembering Caiaphas.

Let's have a look at the entirety of what these still unidentified 'writers' actually 'remembered'.

Matthew 26:57-68 (King James Version)

⁵⁷And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.

⁵⁸But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end.

⁵⁹Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

⁶⁰But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,

⁶¹And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

⁶²And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

⁶³But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

⁶⁴Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

⁶⁵Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

⁶⁶What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

⁶⁷Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

⁶⁸Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?​

John 11:47-53 (King James Version)

⁴⁷Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.

⁴⁸If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

⁴⁹And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

⁵⁰Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

⁵¹And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

⁵²And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

⁵³Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.​

John 18:24 (King James Version)

²⁴Now Annas had sent him bound unto Caiaphas the high priest.​

Acts 4:5-6 (King James Version)

⁵And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,

⁶And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.​

That's it, DOC. The complete biblical record of (someone named) Caiaphas. Even if the people you claim actually wrote it, it's still pathetic by any measure.

How would you say this stacks up against the historical record of, say, Julius Cæsar or Alexander the Great?

What would Sir Ramsay say?

 

[Akhenaten]

Forrest Gump and Steamboat Willie are not real people and never had their bones dug up like Caiaphas so I don't believe the analogies apply.

And you would be wrong. Forest Gump is a perfect analogy as it refers to a fictional character (forest gump) who had supposed interactions with real people.

Now, Like Kmortis, I do not have a problem believing Jesus was real. What he sees, Hokulele Sees, Elizabeth I sees, Cleon sees, Lucian sees, zooterkin, Akhenaten, Simon, Carlitos, ... practically everyone sees, but you..is that NONE of the evidence you have presented demonstrates that 1.) The new testament writers told the truth and/or 2.) That jesus was divine.

Aberhaten asked me to to point out that DOC even puts fictional characters on his Ignore List.

 

[nvidiot]

Yes but Aberhaten has quoted Akhenaten many times, which means he must be a historical figure and the messiah!

 

[Akhenaten]

Faultless logic. Arnold Sir Jefferson Luke Ramsay-Geisler would be very proud.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Many other scholars disagree with your unsourced statement.

And your sources are?

And the NT writers didn't seem to have any problem remembering Caiaphas.

Let's have a look at the entirety of what these still unidentified 'writers' actually 'remembered'.

Matthew 26:57-68 (King James Version)

⁵⁷And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.

⁵⁸But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end.

⁵⁹Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

⁶⁰But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,

⁶¹And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

⁶²And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

⁶³But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

⁶⁴Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

⁶⁵Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

⁶⁶What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

⁶⁷Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

⁶⁸Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?​

John 11:47-53 (King James Version)

⁴⁷Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.

⁴⁸If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

⁴⁹And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

⁵⁰Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

⁵¹And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

⁵²And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

⁵³Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.​

John 18:24 (King James Version)

²⁴Now Annas had sent him bound unto Caiaphas the high priest.​

Acts 4:5-6 (King James Version)

⁵And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,

⁶And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.​

That's it, DOC. The complete biblical record of (someone named) Caiaphas. Even if the people you claim actually wrote it, it's still pathetic by any measure.

How would you say this stacks up against the historical record of, say, Julius Cæsar or Alexander the Great?

What would Sir Ramsay say?

Very good question. Just exactly the kind that DOC has gotten out of the habit of answering.

 

[carlitos]

with apologies to all

Why did you have to put this idea in my mind? It's been haunting me all day.

Then this likely won't help.

...NONE of the evidence you have presented demonstrates ... That jesus was divine.

Indeed.

 

[paximperium]

Faultless logic. Arnold Sir Jefferson Luke Ramsay-Geisler would be very proud.

Spiderman met President Obama once. It says so in the comic.

 

[Akhenaten]

Spiderman met President Obama once. It says so in the comic.

Is that the limited edition Sir Walter Scott comic entitled Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive?

If someone whose first name is 'Sir' said it then it's double-true.

 

[Elizabeth I]

If someone whose first name is 'Sir' said it then it's double-true.

Sir! YES, SIR!

Sir.








"Sir" is a silly word if you look at it long enough.

 

[Akhenaten]

Ma'am! YES MA'AM! is good for a giggle too.

 

[DOC]

Forrest Gump and Steamboat Willie are not real people and never had their bones dug up like Caiaphas so I don't believe the analogies apply.

*facepalm*

No, DOC. You're pissing the point. Again. Stunningly.

Forest Gump is fiction. It mentions real people. Like JFK and Nixon.
Therefore, the fact that the NT mentions real people does not mean it's not fiction.

Fiction was almost non-existent at that time, and people don't die or risk their lives for fiction that supposedly happened to someone they knew personally and could verify whether or not it happened.. If someone said my friend (whose funeral I attended a few days ago) has since risen from the dead and was seen walking around town, I"m not going to die for that fact (like the apostles did) unless I verify it.

And here is some info about fiction at that time from the article- Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ: by Christopher Louis Lang

"Many were illiterate, few could read, much less write, and paper or parchment (leather) to write on was expensive. The incentive to fabricate was not as it is today. In other words, The National Enquirer, could never have been published at this time. A high regard was given to writing and the luxury to create fictional material was virtually non-existent, for instance there was no such thing as a novel or a newspaper, although there were artistic writings such as poetry. The Bible however, is a much different kind of literature. It was not written as a poem or story, although it also contains poetry. It was for the most part written as history and is intended to communicate truth throughout."

http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/doubt.htm

Also there were 9 independent New Testament writers, we're not talking about 1 writer here. That's a lot of people to be out and about searching for the truth. You might be able to fool one of them but fooling all 9 is highly unlikely (especially someone like gospel writer Luke who was highly praised by Sir William M. Ramsay).

 

[carlitos]

You are defending the truthfulness of the New Testament, which was passed on by oral tradition for hundreds of years, by presenting a source who tells us that parchment was expensive and people were illiterate? There's a jaw-dropper.

 

[RoboTimbo]

DOC, if you correctly identify three of the fallacies that you used in that post and describe why they are fallacies, I'll stop quoting Abehaten.

Spiderman met President Obama once. It says so in the comic.

Is that the limited edition Sir Walter Scott comic entitled Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive?

If someone whose first name is 'Sir' said it then it's double-true.

 

[Fiona]

Fiction was almost non-existent at that time, and people don't die or risk their lives for fiction that supposedly happened to someone they knew personally and could verify whether or not it happened.. If someone said my friend (whose funeral I attended a few days ago) has since risen from the dead and was seen walking around town, I"m not going to die for that fact (like the apostles did) unless I verify it.

And here is some info about fiction at that time from the article- Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ: by Christopher Louis Lang

"Many were illiterate, few could read, much less write, and paper or parchment (leather) to write on was expensive. The incentive to fabricate was not as it is today. In other words, The National Enquirer, could never have been published at this time. A high regard was given to writing and the luxury to create fictional material was virtually non-existent, for instance there was no such thing as a novel or a newspaper, although there were artistic writings such as poetry. The Bible however, is a much different kind of literature. It was not written as a poem or story, although it also contains poetry. It was for the most part written as history and is intended to communicate truth throughout."

http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/doubt.htm

Also there were 9 independent New Testament writers, we're not talking about 1 writer here. That's a lot of people to be out and about searching for the truth. You might be able to fool one of them but fooling all 9 is highly unlikely (especially someone like gospel writer Luke who was highly praised by Sir William M. Ramsay).

I can't believe I read that. That is stunning