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Coast to Coast AM Debate, August 21 2010

GlennB said:
The whole point is that they can't. They must slide past each
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To "slide past each other" they would all have to break off simultaneously. Steel, especially steel that has been heated to the point where it will bend, will not just BREAK off suddenly. It will bend and that takes time - no FFA.
 
Tony Szamboti said:
Watch the collapse of the Balzac-Vitry building a little closer and you will see the entire upper section shifts to the left, so there would not have been a relatively clean column on column axial impact, yet it still shows significant deceleration at the roofline.
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Tony, I don't know how many times I have told you this: the vérinage demolitions are applied to buildings with parallel load-bearing walls, yet you keep talking about the column-to-column impacts.

If the top is displaced a bit to the left, then the upper load-bearing walls impact the floors at a point very close to the load-bearing wall below, or vice versa. That makes some difference with respect to axial impacts, but not that much.

As a side note, please remember to remind your association to fix the errors I pointed to you in their web. I see they are still there. I will point out many more in due time, but these are a good start.
 
Tony Szamboti said:
As you say, they can't explain the 2.25 second freefall of the exterior so they deny it.
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Who denies it?

Why explain something that is already explained?

In Stage 1, the descent was slow and the acceleration was less than that of gravity. This stage corresponds to the initial buckling of the exterior columns in the lower stories of the north face. By 1.75 s, the north face had descended approximately 2.2 m (7 ft).

In Stage 2, the north face descended at gravitational acceleration, as the buckled columns provided negligible support to the upper portion of the north face. This free fall drop continued for approximately 8 stories or 32.0 m (105 ft), the distance traveled between times t = 1.75 s and t = 4.0 s.

In Stage 3, the acceleration decreased somewhat as the upper portion of the north face encountered increased resistance from the collapsed structure and the debris pile below. Between 4.0 s and 5.4 s, the north face corner fell an additional 39.6 m (130 ft).
​
NIST NCSTAR 1A, p.45
 
Christopher7 said:
To "slide past each other" they would all have to break off simultaneously. Steel, especially steel that has been heated to the point where it will bend, will not just BREAK off suddenly. It will bend and that takes time - no FFA.
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Yes, steel will break off suddenly especially if it has even a little time to cool after being heated.
 
Gorgonian said:
This is silly. There is visibile deformation of the exterior. I'm at my office and therefore cannot access youtube, but there are videos that show, with color manipulation very clearly, that the the exterior deforms significantly as the interior collapses. The light reflecting off of the windows of the building changes angles as the building deforms.

The video I'm thinking of also plays the main part of the collapse at a faster speed and you can see the entire structure wobbling.

This might be the wrong video, but I have this in a txt document from when I referenced it on another forum. If it's wrong and someone else knows what I'm talking about, I'd appreciate a correction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvbkhGaviwg
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That is the wrong video. The FFA is when the entire building falls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3mudruFzNw

Both the Chandler and NIST graphs are measuring the north face.
Chandler at the northwest corner and NIST about midway on the roof line. Both places move down a little, pause and then go into FFA.

graphcompare.jpg
 
Disbelief said:
Yes, steel will break off suddenly especially if it has even a little time to cool after being heated.
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Something else noted by the explosives expert (Ron Craig) who debated Steven Jones on Richard Syrett's radio show. When they heated beams to the temperatures experienced in the WTC fires, they "exploded." That is, they made a really freaking loud "bang" sound which surprised the researchers.
 
Christopher7 said:
All 158 interior and exterior columns breaking at the same instant?
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I never claimed that, I just pointed out an obvious error in your statement. According to your earlier statements, there would be no need to break at the same instant anyway - just close enough to not be able to tell the difference. If you want to argue that route, you would have to have all columns CDd at the same instant. Do you think that is possible?
 
pgimeno said:
Who denies it?

Why explain something that is already explained?
In Stage 1, the descent was slow and the acceleration was less than that of gravity. This stage corresponds to the initial buckling of the exterior columns in the lower stories of the north face. By 1.75 s, the north face had descended approximately 2.2 m (7 ft).

In Stage 2, the north face descended at gravitational acceleration, as the buckled columns provided negligible support to the upper portion of the north face. This free fall drop continued for approximately 8 stories or 32.0 m (105 ft), the distance traveled between times t = 1.75 s and t = 4.0 s.

In Stage 3, the acceleration decreased somewhat as the upper portion of the north face encountered increased resistance from the collapsed structure and the debris pile below. Between 4.0 s and 5.4 s, the north face corner fell an additional 39.6 m (130 ft).
​
NIST NCSTAR 1A, p.45
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Why are they stuck on NIST? They need to do their own study. Too bad they are not engineers, or laypeople who can gain knowledge and figure it out.
 
Christopher7 said:
That is the wrong video.
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No, it isn't. It is the video I was talking about. It clearly shows the deformation of the exterior as the interior collapses. Don't get me wrong, the person that posted that video draws the wrong conclusions from this, but it doesn't change the fact that the video does show clear deformation of the exterior.
 
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Christopher7 said:
That is the wrong video. The FFA is when the entire building falls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3mudruFzNw

Both the Chandler and NIST graphs are measuring the north face.
Chandler at the northwest corner and NIST about midway on the roof line. Both places move down a little, pause and then go into FFA.

[qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img34/5822/graphcompare.jpg[/qimg]
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How do you explain faster the free-fall? Both measured it.
 
carlitos said:
Something else noted by the explosives expert (Ron Craig) who debated Steven Jones on Richard Syrett's radio show. When they heated beams to the temperatures experienced in the WTC fires, they "exploded." That is, they made a really freaking loud "bang" sound which surprised the researchers.
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Source?
 
DGM said:
How do you explain faster the free-fall? Both measured it.
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The data points fall on both sides of the FFA line. That is because the data points are taken from a video. They used many data points and took the average to get the actual acceleration. The sophistry used to claim faster than free fall is idiotic.
 
Gorgonian said:
No, it isn't. It is the video I was talking about. It clearly shows the deformation of the exterior as the interior collapses. Don't get me wrong, the person that posted that video draws the wrong conclusions from this, but it doesn't change the fact that the video does show clear deformation of the exterior.
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Other than the kink - no.
 
C7 said:
All 158 interior and exterior columns breaking at the same instant?
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9/11 Chewy Defense said:
Don't you know that they were bolted together? Bolts under stress reach a breaking point & simply snap under extreme pressure & weight.
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Can all the bolts on all 158 interior and exterior columns break at the same instant?

Man, you've gotta get over your denial.
 
Christopher7 said:
The data points fall on both sides of the FFA line. That is because the data points are taken from a video. They used many data points and took the average to get the actual acceleration. The sophistry used to claim faster than free fall is idiotic.
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It's too bad the data (yours and ours) does not support this fantasy.


Carry on!
 
Christopher7 said:
Can all the bolts on all 158 interior and exterior columns break at the same instant?

Man, you've gotta get over your denial.
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Thermite burns through 158 vertical columns timed to make them fail simultaneously?

Man, you've gotta get over your fantasy.
 
Christopher7 said:
Can all the bolts on all 158 interior and exterior columns break at the same instant?

Man, you've gotta get over your denial.
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I asked before, I will ask again. Do you believe that a CD would be able to simultaneously sever 158 columns? Using thermite? Using high explosives?
 
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