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The Star Trek Transporter Enigma

I think you can get at the root of it by answering the following question:

Matma Doom kills the President of the United Federation and is recorded doing so on holo-vision. He is thoroughly guilty. But, to make an escape, Matma Doom uses a transporter to go to another planet, JREF-7.

Now, the person who is caught on JREF-7, are they guilty of the assassination?

Even this simple version is overly detailed. Why does Matma Doom need to go anywhere else? Don't all the questions still arise if he dematerializes and then rematerializes in the same place a nanosecond later?

If the original does not dematerialize so that there are two then are both guilty of the crime committed by one?

If, at the moment the copy materializes, the light goes out long enough for them to switch places then who is guilty when the light comes back on?

Suppose the original frames the copy for murder?
Is there any end in sight unless he bends over and kisses his copy's ass goodbye?
 
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This is a great question! People who wouldn't use the transporter should be satisfied that he is dead and gone, and that the copy is a new person who had no choice in being created, and can continue on his way, right? It's not his fault he's stuck with memories of murdering the president, right?

It gets at what is a perceived flaw in materialism -- historicity and responsibility. Am I just the sum of the molecules that currently make my physical self (and, not to be too simplistic, the interactions of those molecules)? If so, where does responsibility reside when this system, which never remains static, commits some offense?

I have my own idea of whether or not Matma Doom (#2?)should be punished, and on what basis, but I want to see what the colloquium thinks.
 
I'd expect the same as you. That makes me think that if I want to see Mars, I'm going to have to fly there in a rocket. If I use a transporter instead it'll be my identical twin who sees it, not me.

That's how it seems, yes.

It seems as though, most definitely, it will not be you that does the seeing. But, what the materialist viewpoint on consciousness shows, is that there cannot in actuality be a see-er/I] here. It seems as though there is someone that does the seeing, but actually this notional see-er is just another aspect of consciousness itself, not an actual viewer. The brain constructs the idea of a see-er, but there is not actually a see-er. This is why it can be perfectly replicated.

Nick
 
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I think you can get at the root of it by answering the following question:

Matma Doom kills the President of the United Federation and is recorded doing so on holo-vision. He is thoroughly guilty. But, to make an escape, Matma Doom uses a transporter to go to another planet, JREF-7.

Now, the person who is caught on JREF-7, are they guilty of the assassination?

Interesting, but it doesn't quite work for me. Personally I would not use a teleport system as I don't understand how it (and I) work, so I'm not willing to take the risk that I'd die. That's not the same as saying I have absolute confidence that anyone using the system will die and be replaced.
 
Interesting, but it doesn't quite work for me. Personally I would not use a teleport system as I don't understand how it (and I) work, so I'm not willing to take the risk that I'd die. That's not the same as saying I have absolute confidence that anyone using the system will die and be replaced.

For me, the moral issue is around Matma's intent. If his intent is to escape justice by using a Teleporter then for me he should be punished, regardless of whether he is actually Matma#1 or Matha#243 or anywhere in between.

Nick
 
For me, the moral issue is around Matma's intent. If his intent is to escape justice by using a Teleporter then for me he should be punished, regardless of whether he is actually Matma#1 or Matha#243 or anywhere in between.

Nick

Exactly. Now, imagine that instead of killing the president, Matma has killed your wife, and is using the teleporter to make his way to your daughters house with the intent of killing her.

I'm sure in this case you would be dead set on stopping whatever person came out of the other end of the teleporter, no matter what philosophies you hold on the matter. Because for all intents and purposes, it is the same person. It has the same intentions, the same behavior, and the same goals as it did when it went in. Any practical way you look at it, it is the same person.
 
Exactly. Now, imagine that instead of killing the president, Matma has killed your wife, and is using the teleporter to make his way to your daughters house with the intent of killing her.

I'm sure in this case you would be dead set on stopping whatever person came out of the other end of the teleporter, no matter what philosophies you hold on the matter. Because for all intents and purposes, it is the same person. It has the same intentions, the same behavior, and the same goals as it did when it went in. Any practical way you look at it, it is the same person.

Well, for me it is the same person.

But I recognise also that how you define the word "person" can vary. The problem with the Transporter scenario is that many of the words we use around it weren't created with the possibility of copying people in mind. These include "die", "kill", "self", "I", "my", "person", "individual" + plenty of others. Consequently, the mind often runs into paradox when it tries create rules around Transporter situations.

Are you really dying when if you use the Transporter? On one level, yes, your body does cease to exist in the sense that the individual molecules are dematerialized. On another level, no, because it is all replicated, there is no subjective change, and there is not in reality a persisting self anyway. It's tricky.

But, having taken part in a lot of these debates, I hold that it is in reality our notion of subjectivity that is really the guts of it. People talk about the body, they talk about accident scenarios, but under examination it usually comes down, IMO, to them still prefering to believe that there is a persisting experiencing self despite their professed allegiance to materialism. That's my take.

Nick
 
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But, having taken part in a lot of these debates, I hold that it is in reality our notion of subjectivity that is really the guts of it. People talk about the body, they talk about accident scenarios, but under examination it usually comes down, IMO, to them still prefering to believe that there is a persisting experiencing self despite their professed allegiance to materialism. That's my take.

Nick

I agree. And to get past this notion, and to go full-on materialist, I would assert that even if Matma uses a custom transporter (that kills the original) to have 13 copies of himself appear on 13 different planets, they are all guilty and we need a baker's dozen executions.

I'm not standing on the notion of a persistent self or the notion that our deeds follow us like a shadow, but rather on the amoral idea of a defective material system -- not 'guilty' so much as 'flawed'. This opens a whole new can of worms of course.
 
I agree. And to get past this notion, and to go full-on materialist, I would assert that even if Matma uses a custom transporter (that kills the original) to have 13 copies of himself appear on 13 different planets, they are all guilty and we need a baker's dozen executions.

Of course. The body, of its own nature, is not culpable. But how it is configured - in this case neurochemically - dictates the actions the body undertakes. Thus, if you replace the body but retain the way it's internally configured, you do nothing to stop Matma killing again or serving to justify others killing.

Of course you could replace his victim if you have a back-up! That would introduce a new dimension.

Nick
 
Of course you could replace his victim if you have a back-up! That would introduce a new dimension.

Nick

I love it! The crime of murder becomes punishable by a fine to cover the cost of making a new copy of the victim. What an interesting dynamic that introduces.

Road rage becomes homicidal as a matter of course. Bored rich kids go on murder sprees to pass slow weekends. All professional sports now include death as an added, spicy risk. Serial killers go bankrupt. Venomous snakes get pouty.

Oh brave new world that has no Death in it!
 
I love it! The crime of murder becomes punishable by a fine to cover the cost of making a new copy of the victim. What an interesting dynamic that introduces.

Road rage becomes homicidal as a matter of course. Bored rich kids go on murder sprees to pass slow weekends. All professional sports now include death as an added, spicy risk. Serial killers go bankrupt. Venomous snakes get pouty.

Oh brave new world that has no Death in it!

Yes. It would I guess also rely on there being someone to inform the authorities of your demise and ask them to institute some kind of "restore" process. Maybe there are some you don't want back!

Nick
 
The only thing that is lost is the original, and that's all that matters to me. Me.

But it isn't, in any way that could possibly matter, we have established that.

I know you disagree but really you don't have a good reason, we have been over this exhaustively in other threads. It is a gut feeling.
 
That is the nearest I see as an analogy, but to push the analogy further, what is you melt the candle memory, decompose it under singular atom+position, and then reconstitute it later painstakingly atom by atom ?

Sure the brain is being replaced piece by piece at a time. But as far as I can tell, it is only protein by protein, not full neurone replacement. That is where the "we are being continuously different" break down. The emerging property are being slowly changed, but they are mostly continuous. Even in the case of people going into coma/Obe/whatever the cells and brain continue to work or are in a state where the emerging property is still there, even if that work is minimal.

Here we are speaking of two asymptote with a full 100% non same molecule in original and copy.

I, of course, gave short shrift to sleep (dreams) and other legitimately conscious states. I do not believe they affect my point in any meaningful sense.


I also cast things in a context of whether I, personally, would feel secure in a particular teleportation method, or whether I feel I would die as a clone of me popped into existence elsewhere.

Hence the Trek transporters, which beam your actual particles down and re-assemble them, each in their correct place. I'm fine with that.

But the destructive teleporters, that rip your particles apart (with the technobabble that this is required to learn their positions), then only the info is sent, with reassembly by (admittedly indistinguishable) local particles, would seem to me to be killing me.

The former is an example of the ultimate injury followed by "healing". The latter is the ultimate injury followed by death.


Hence my lit candle concept. Your consciousness is like the lit candle. Cut the oxygen, and they both go out damned fast, even if the wick still smolders and the pool of wax is still liquid. Even if the unconscious brain is still churning and replaying info and driving the heart and so on.

So...if the candle is teleported, molecule-for-molecule, then re-lit, yes, it is the same candle. If it is assembled from local particles, no, it is not.

Note I've already covered the flame bit, though: It is not the same flame when re-lit, so to speak, even if it is the same candle, atom-for-atom. There is no continuity.

And your consciousness when "re-lit" when you wake up is also not the same consciousness that fell asleep. Consciousness is just a dynamic process fed by the memories.


I do admit this sounds more like a definition of consciousness than an explanation of age-old philosophical issues. However, I think this model captures all the important issues under discussion. I'm eager for issues so I can buff it or abandon it.
 
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The point is that there's no way to tell any difference between the original or the transported one without knowing the history.

There's no way for an external observer to tell them apart. But you, the (destructively) transported fellow would know, so to speak, by never waking up. We've already admitted the clone would wake up and swear on a stack of Bibles that they were the true original.


Thus, they are identical.

As mechanical devices that give rise to the real-world, physical phenomenon of consciousness, yes, they are. That does not mean the original isn't dead, though, if destructively teleported.
 
There's no way for an external observer to tell them apart. But you, the (destructively) transported fellow would know, so to speak, by never waking up.

I don't think that is so. If we take the case Hellbound then put forward... that the lights go down and both you and the clone find yourselves together in the room, there is still no way for either of you to know who is the original.

Nick
 
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Let's suppose that the fictional Star Trek transporter works like this:

A computer records the identity and position of every particle of your body as the transporter disassembles it, and the particles are stored locally in some sort of storage space, or perhaps annihilated by conversion to energy.

Simultaneously, it recreates those particles at a remote location, or perhaps harvests them from existing matter at that location, and reassembles your body to form an exact duplicate of what it disassembled. The important point here is that the only thing actually transferred to the destination is information; no actual particles of matter travel across the gap. Thus, you've been transported.

Or have you?

Objectively, it seems so to everyone, including you. After you've been transported, you seem to be the same person with the same memories that you had before, but are you?

Or did the "you" that stood on the transporter actually get killed? Does the transporter actually execute people and replace them with duplicates? Is it suicide to step on a transporter platform?

This seems more like a philosophical than a scientific question, so I'm posting it here. Some might argue that the Star trek transporter must be forever impossible because of the difficulty of resolving the paradox. Some might argue for the existence of a soul. What do you think? -


I think there have been a lot of transporter threads in R&P this month -- maybe August is transporter month at JREF -- which have engendered some at times interesting, at times puzzling, discussions; but no matter how you untangle the strings and reassemble the atoms, all boil down to the same thing (part of a very old debate in philosophy); as philosophically as I can:

The transporter dilemma seems to trade on a simple, yet deep confusion of class and instance (and latterly perhaps, of the implications of materialism and idealism).

Let's say that I am conscious.

When I say I am conscious, I mean that I have that property: I am an instance of a conscious thing, something that is being conscious. We call being conscious, the active process, consciousness.

So my conscious activity or consciousness is an instance of the class of all activities that could be described as consciousness.

At this point, that is a very large class: it includes descriptions of all possible instances of consciousness, my own and anyone or anything else's capable of consciousness.

Now let's restrict this class to a unique member: a description of my own instance of consciousness at this moment. Let's call this class "my consciousness".

Now, as in the teleporter scenario, let's create a copy of me: that is, another instance of "my consciousness". We now have two instances of the same class, so it seems not to matter which we destroy, we will still have preserved "my consciousness".

The catch is: what have we preserved? Recall that "my consciousness" is "a description of my own instance of consciousness at this moment." But is a description identical with that which it describes? There seems to be something funny going on here.

Is an instance of a color identical to "a certain range of wavelength of light"? More plainly, is the description "a specific round orange-colored fruit" identical to an instance of "a specific round orange-colored fruit", that is, a specific orange? Two oranges, an original and a perfect copy, are certainly identical instances of the descriptive class "a specific round orange-colored fruit"; but are they identical with the description? Is the class more real than its instances?

This is a very old question in philosophy, going right back to Plato and Aristotle. Plato, the Idealist, would say yes, the "descriptive class", the idea, is more real than the "instance", or object; that the illusion of the instance is derived from the eternal reality of the class; Aristotle, the Materialist (actually, non-Idealist would be a better term, as Aristotle's "materialism" isn't fully worked out, but for the sake of contrast calling him a materialist doesn't do his philosophy too much harm) would say no, the class is a description of the instance(s), an order we perceive and describe, it arises out of the systematic world of things, and has no prior existence. It is a description of possible order, which is different from an actual object, an actual instance of that order. That even identical instances, therefore, are different things, not strictly interchangeable instances of a prior thing.

If two materially, algorithmically identical thermometers in different places are recording, conscious of, the same temperature at a given moment, have I lost anything by destroying one of them? Of course I have. I have lost a thermometer: have lost the possibility of recording temperatures at the location of the destroyed thermometer. I shouldn't expect that because for that moment the two thermometers were identical, right down to the process that gave rise to their identical temperature readings and the algorithm that describes it, that they are the same thermometerization. Just because they are identical temperature readings at that moment, doesn't mean they are identical readings of temperature. They are in different places. Destroying one discontinues the temperature reading in that place.

By the same token, just scaling up our thermometer consciousness to human consciousness, if two materially identical humans are conscious of the same things, have the same consciousness at a given moment, what do I lose by destroying one of them? One of them. Put more philosophically, I lose a local possibility of consciousness. Just because what they are conscious of is momentarily identical (from the point of view of class description), doesn't mean they are identical consciousnesses (and we're careful to differentiate here between the class of conscious experience and the two material instances, failure to do which creates the paradox). They are in different places. Destroying one discontinues the instance of consciousness in that place.

If I am that material instance, that destruction concerns me a lot, as a materialist. If I am an idealist, otoh, and believe that I am the descriptive class of my material consciousness, that I am the Idea of my consciousness, then no problem, let's teleport, destroy away...

But count me out, I think (therefore, I am). :boxedin:
 
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I think there have been a lot of transporter threads in R&P this month -- maybe August is transporter month at JREF -- which have engendered some at times interesting, at times puzzling, discussions; but no matter how you untangle the strings and reassemble the atoms, all boil down to the same thing (part of a very old debate in philosophy); as philosophically as I can:

The transporter dilemma seems to trade on a simple, yet deep confusion of class and instance (and latterly perhaps, of the implications of materialism and idealism).

I like the terminology, but I think it misses a key idea. There is but one real class: The Universe and all its interacting parts. As soon as we delineate a subset and define that as a class, we are already moving away from reality.

The arguments point out ways that we have moved. Context, historicity and so on emerge as things we took for granted that are now made relevant. The conflict comes in when I point out how the model differs from reality which is the big class.

When you run the experiment with the number 2, I would have to agree that typing a 2 here and erasing the 2 over there gives me all that I desire, but I'm used to using Mathematics as a class separate from the real universe. It did, however, take training before I glommed this at some point in my childhood.

So, yeah, in a sense, this 2 just popped into existence and no other, perfectly identical copy will ever grace this sentence at the same time and in the same manner as the one above. Except, of course, you know the one above that you are looking at now isn't the same as the one I typed, and the one I typed isn't the same as the one that appears on my keyboard. Context does matter, each instance holds a separate place in the Universal Class.
 

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