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Coast to Coast AM Debate, August 21 2010

Ryan, it isn't surprising that you don't support your statement here, as you won't admit to the glaring errors you made in our debate.

Remember your insistence that the factor of safety of the central core columns wasn't 3.00 to 1, when in fact it was that high with the actual in service loads it carried, and your portrayal of the tilt of the upper section of WTC 1 being the NIST assertion of 8 degrees before it started to descend, which has now been proven to be in error as in reality it started to descend and tilt immediately.

Your behavior here smacks of bias and is not becoming of a professional.

Like you Dave Thomas' analysis is in error also. His theorized impulses and velocity drops do not provide the energy necessary to deform and buckle the columns and continue the collapse. His claim that the velocity drop during the first collision is from 19 to 18 mph is farcical as it doesn't even provide 10% of the energy required. He won't even attempt to try and explain the contradiction the Verinage demolitions cause his theory.

It's funny that I can't find ANY structural engineers who believe you, Tony, and I know a crap load of them. Did you know there are whole communities of them out there who actually know what they are doing? Shocking, I know.
 
It's funny that I can't find ANY structural engineers who believe you, Tony, and I know a crap load of them. Did you know there are whole communities of them out there who actually know what they are doing? Shocking, I know.

As you don't support your statement you seem to be just an anonymous cheerleader willing to say anything to maintain their position. I would be surprised if you even know any structural engineers who have looked into these collapses and support the NIST explanation, aside from a couple on this forum.

One who does support the NIST hypothesis here and actually gives his real name, Ryan Mackey, is close to being relegated to cheerleader status along with the likes of you, due to his inability to admit to proven errors in his analysis.
 
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As you don't support your statement you seem to be just an anonymous cheerleader willing to say anything to maintain their position. I would be surprised if you even know any structural engineers who have looked into these collapses and support the NIST explanation, aside from a couple on this forum.

One who does support the NIST hypothesis here and actually gives his real name, Ryan Mackey, is close to being relegated to cheerleader status along with the likes of you, due to his inability to admit to proven errors in his analysis.
Has anybody mentioned that free fall acceleration can only occur when all the supporting structure is removed simultaneously?

Collapsing columns provide some resistance and do not allow free fall so Dave's theory does not work.
 
@Sam.I.Am.

Your first mistake is assuming all truthers think


Theories change as no information becomes available
 
Has anybody mentioned that free fall acceleration can only occur when all the supporting structure is removed simultaneously?

Collapsing columns provide some resistance and do not allow free fall so Dave's theory does not work.
But where's the free fall?

There was NO actual free fall in any of the cases(*). There was near free fall as the already failed columns opposed negligible support. Yes, they oppose some resistance but it's still negligible.

Try to squeeze a spaghetti (dried, not cooked) axially between your fingers. At first, while it is straight, it will oppose a great resistance, but as soon as it buckles, the resistance will become very small and you will be able to break it very easily.

(*) I'm referring to the center of gravity, of course. Individual points could have a vertical acceleration component equal or even greater than free fall acceleration.
 
Ryan, it isn't surprising that you don't support your statement here, as you won't admit to the glaring errors you made in our debate. ... Your behavior here smacks of bias and is not becoming of a professional.

Like you Dave Thomas' analysis is in error also. His theorized impulses and velocity drops do not provide the energy necessary to deform and buckle the columns and continue the collapse. His claim that the velocity drop during the first collision is from 19 to 18 mph is farcical as it doesn't even provide 10% of the energy required. He won't even attempt to try and explain the contradiction the Verinage demolitions cause his theory.

No, your claim that the velocity drop will violate the law of conservation of momentum is what is farcical.

But perhaps not as farcical as your "custard" theory you've described on 911blogger:
In a structure with a factor of safety of at least 3.00 to 1 the only way the upper section of it can fall through it at 2/3rds g, without a dynamic load, is if about 85 to 90% of the integrity of the structure was being consistently removed unnaturally, leaving only 1/3rd of the minimum strength necessary to support the static load with no reserve. Gordon Ross has previously described it as a weight being dropped in and moving down through custard. I tend to agree with him, in that the lower section was being turned into a custard like consistency, and it had nothing to do with dynamic loads, because they provably weren't occurring.

Oh yeah, "Custard". I really don't think you truth 'physicists' are understanding my very basic point: the process of freefalls punctuated by brief collisions produces motion that looks like falling at a contant reduced acceleration, namely the weighted average of the accelerations over time (e.g. 2/3 g for the 1st 4 seconds of WTC1's collapse).

I don't need custard for this theory.

I propose re-defining the acronym CD (Controlled Demolition) with a better definition, Custard Demolition.

:cool:
 
Has anybody mentioned that free fall acceleration can only occur when all the supporting structure is removed simultaneously?

Collapsing columns provide some resistance and do not allow free fall so Dave's theory does not work.

But, I account for this resistance in my analysis. It's what causes the collapses to be longer than would have been the case for true freefall acceleration.

There is resistance at every step, all the way down. It doesn't stop the towers from falling, however.
 
and your portrayal of the tilt of the upper section of WTC 1 being the NIST assertion of 8 degrees before it started to descend, which has now been proven to be in error as in reality it started to descend and tilt immediately.
The 8 degrees was the measurement before smoke and debris obscured the view. NIST explains that the upper building section started to descend before then.
This is an error that Major tom and femr2 also made.

See http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6262427&postcount=1039
 
Just finished listening to the debate this morning.

Thanks a lot to those who took the time to edit out the commercials and post the mp3 for download!

One thing that really struck me about this was Harrit's assertion that "anyone with 2 eyes and a brain" can see that it is "clearly" a CD. To me, this is a damning statement by him. He "knew" the answer before he started his experiments. I think we can safely dismiss his findings based on that alone.

Anyway, great job Dave. It's an exceedingly difficult task to remain civil and measured with your responses to Gage's ridiculous theories.

I mean, my GOD, Gage actually even resorted to the "pull it" garbage after being prompted by a caller. Talk about straw-grasping.
 
But, I account for this resistance in my analysis. It's what causes the collapses to be longer than would have been the case for true freefall acceleration.

There is resistance at every step, all the way down. It doesn't stop the towers from falling, however.
Thank you for responding to my post.
The TM does not claim that the TT fell at FFA [free fall acceleration] although some forget to add "near' when saying free fall.

I watched your video. You have the upper section falling at FFA for h=12 feet? You don't specify the value of "h" but the floors are approximately 12 feet. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
The 8 degrees was the measurement before smoke and debris obscured the view. NIST explains that the upper building section started to descend before then.
This is an error that Major tom and femr2 also made.

See http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6262427&postcount=1039
Correction:
NISTNCSTAR 1-6D pg xliv [pdf pg 46]
WTC 1 began to collapse. First exterior sign of collapse was at Floor 98. Rotation of at least 8 degrees to the south occurred before the building section began to fall vertically under gravity.
WTC 2
Tilt of approximately 3 to 4 degrees to the south and 7 to 8 degrees to the east occurred before building section fell.
pg
WTC 1 pg liii [pdf pg 55]
The section of the building above the impact zone tilted to the south (observed at about 8˚)
 
Correction:
NISTNCSTAR 1-6D pg xliv [pdf pg 46]
WTC 1 began to collapse. First exterior sign of collapse was at Floor 98. Rotation of at least 8 degrees to the south occurred before the building section began to fall vertically under gravity.
WTC 2
Tilt of approximately 3 to 4 degrees to the south and 7 to 8 degrees to the east occurred before building section fell.
pg
WTC 1 pg liii [pdf pg 55]
The section of the building above the impact zone tilted to the south (observed at about 8˚)

I don't see any correction to the information I listed from NIST. See table 6-1 pg 156 and continue reading the figures. And look at the images. Also see figure 6-8.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6262427&postcount=1039
 
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C7 said:
Has anybody mentioned that free fall acceleration can only occur when all the supporting structure is removed simultaneously?

Collapsing columns provide some resistance and do not allow free fall so Dave's theory does not work.
But where's the free fall?

There was NO actual free fall in any of the cases
As I understand it, Dave's hypothesis starts with the upper section falling at FFA for 12 feet.

There was near free fall as the already failed columns opposed negligible support. Yes, they oppose some resistance but it's still negligible.
negligible: too small to be considered

This does not happen instantaneously. FFA requires instantaneous failure of the remaining ~120 exterior columns and 38 core columns.
 
As I understand it, Dave's hypothesis starts with the upper section falling at FFA for 12 feet.

negligible: too small to be considered

This does not happen instantaneously. FFA requires instantaneous failure of the remaining ~120 exterior columns and 38 core columns.

Good points!

I was going to bring up the freefall problem with Dave Thomas' analysis myself but wanted to be sure he admitted that is what he assumed first. Which he does above where he mentions that he thinks he is being misunderstood.

Dave should know that some of us certainly do understand that his analysis assumes freefall punctuated by brief collisions and that he is trying to show how that could mimic an average continuous acceleration of 2/3rds g. The issue is that his analysis cannot possibly be legitimately describing the collapses of WTC 1 for several reasons:

1. Collapsing/buckling columns still provide a fair amount of resistance. If anyone doubts this they can look at figures 5d and e in Dr. Bazant's paper, where he shows a classic graph of resistance during buckling http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf. The resistance during the buckling never falls below 25% of the original intact column resistance. In the case of WTC 1, where the columns were at least 3 times stronger than needed to support the static load, that means the resistance is almost capable of supporting the static load. In other words, the minimum resistance is 25% of a strength which could support 3 times the static load, or 75% of the minimum support needed for the static load. The fall through this resistance can only occur at about 0.25 g, so the minimum resistance was not negligible and does not support anything close to near freefall acceleration as Dave is claiming.

2. The velocity drops which Dave assumes in his calculations are far too small to provide the energy needed to continue collapse. Dave seems to think I am violating the conservation of momentum here, but in reality his argument is circular. To determine the velocity loss Dave is taking the kinetic energy difference between freefall acceleration and 2/3rds g. If there wasn't much energy loss required by the upper section for his calculations to determine the velocity drop that doesn't negate the reality of what the columns required to cause their failure. It actually points to other problems and shows he is not considering the full picture.

3. The Verinage demolitions show what a natural collapse should look like in terms of the deceleration of the upper section at impact, since a load amplification is necessary for the insufficient static load mass of the upper section to overcome the reserve strength below. The same measurement techniques used for WTC 1's descent, where they show no deceleration, show significant deceleration of the roofline in every single Verinage demolition. This proves that the measurement technique and frame rate are not the problem and that the effects of any impulse capable of causing continuing collapse are observable. There is obviously no deceleration in the fall of the upper section of WTC 1 and it proves there was no dynamic load.
 
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