Origins

[refamat]

I am relatively new here but do enjoy stirring the pot a little with my additions and hope no one takes my comments too personal, it's all for education, discussion, and entertainment.

One theme keeps cropping up and since I have not see yet a similar idea, I'd like to propose we start a new and addendum type thread based on the origins of texts and legends pertaining to the bible and Jewish Texts.

One of my favorites aside from the Sumarian Epic Poems is the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which has it's beginning in hard copy with the pyramids.

the best of these is chapter or spell 125 in part reproduced here:
I have not stolen
I have not slain people
I have not spoken lies
I have not robbed farmland
I have not made love with the wife of [another] man
I have not spoken out against the god
...
it is very apparent to me that the thinking that went into the 10 commandments sure had knowledge beforehand of this spell (spells are prayers, some people refer to them as spells because they are "heathen" in origin)

Maybe some of our well informed and educated members can expand on the origins of the texts in the bible via historical texts in a more educational manner than I.

 

[Soapy Sam]

What does "...has it's beginning in hard copy with the pyramids." mean?

 

[Halfcentaur]

I doubt very much these concepts were influenced and borrowed by other religion, but rather they are universal social ethics you find among groups of people due to natural selection alone. I hope you're not opening the door to Zeitgeist.

 

[Marduk]

it is very apparent to me that the thinking that went into the 10 commandments sure had knowledge beforehand of this spell (spells are prayers, some people refer to them as spells because they are "heathen" in origin)
.

You are basing that on a slim similarity, when in reality the ten commandments represent universal requirements for any well ordered society. Claiming they borrowed just those ten laws from the thousands and thousands they would be familiar with from the numerous other cultures surrounding them is like claiming that the Green cross code is borrowed from the works of shakespeare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Cross_Code#The_Green_Cross_Code

perhaps you should read this and then tell me what is a more likely origin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_legal_codes

What does "...has it's beginning in hard copy with the pyramids." mean?

the Egyptian book of the dead is an abridged version of the Egyptian pyramid texts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_Texts
The pyramid texts are so called because their earliest origin is on the walls of the burial chamber of the Pyramid of Unas, the last king of the 5th Dynasty

I doubt very much these concepts were influenced and borrowed by other religion.

The Hebrews borrowed heavily from the texts of the Assyrians, who in turn borrowed them from the Babylonians, who in turn borrowed them from the Akkadians who in turn borrowed them from the Sumerians.

 

[refamat]

You are basing that on a slim similarity, when in reality the ten commandments represent universal requirements for any well ordered society.

well, not so sure it is such a "slim" similarity when you take into account whomever moses (mosis?) was, very likely had a substantial knowledge of the book of the dead as evidenced by "non-royalty" tombs that have been uncovered in the last 20 years or so, which show, it only took money and influence to be buried with the same rights as the pharaohs.

And, choosing those entries which would have universal appeal, not universal copy (if it were in the laws as plain in the civilizations you have mentioned, this would have been put forth by archaeologists and biblical scholars long before, but other than genesis and gilgamesh similarity, the only thing that is truly brought forward besides some vague religious beliefs and names prior to 2500 bce, is a language, maybe), would have had an affect upon those from many years of refinement under the 18th dynasty rulers who moved people toward believing that the afterlife should be spent in heaven and not the underworld. this movement would want to see some of the religious prayers that Amenhotep III & IV would want their gods to receive. Also, remember that all prayers end in amen (as in a request to Amun to accept the prayer).

Frankly, I do believe it is a direct reference to Spell 125 since they are in hard copy before most any other civilization does so, and the similarity is far more complete than a universal idea of a truth. It is also know that the Egyptians practiced circumcision and food identification much along the lines of kosher standards, enough so to have been that standard's basis as well.

I do not believe the peoples (various tribes) which moved into the Egyptian area between the downfall of the 2nd intermediate period and the new kingdom were of one peoples with common religious beliefs at all. There is a lot of variety out there and no evidence what so ever that some of these people didn't help form or become part of the new kingdom royalty (of course, it is all negative evidence, but based on the fact that the tribe of levi held so much power coming into the exodus being a warrior tribe but also priests, which makes one wonder if the levites were not the actual priests which administered Amun and then Aten under the pharaoh's direction). It is the killing of one tribe which amounted to about 3000 people as ordered by moses to his "brother" which indicates this.
and the levites and some arabs have a characteristic Y chromosome haplotype termed the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH), which is suspected to be indicative of decent from Aaron. But since some arab people have it also, there had to be mingling before or after exodus or a common ancestor clan, which makes the marker problematic, but distinctive enough to see that common peoples of all the tribes of israel were not of the same clan.

either way, it's a interesting topic to explore.

 

[Twiler]

You are basing that on a slim similarity, when in reality the ten commandments represent universal requirements for any well ordered society.

The only ones which are generally upheld nowadays are the ones about killing, stealing, adultery, and bearing false witness.

 

[Bikewer]

I suppose that some anthropologists somewhere must have compiled lists of "taboos" among very primitive peoples with no previous contacts; I wonder what similarities might be found?

 

[Marduk]

when you take into account whomever moses (mosis?) was.

When you start using the bible as a history book
anything is possible

 

[refamat]

When you start using the bible as a history book
anything is possible

I heard you were good with ancient history, but maybe that is misplaced if you cannot see the similarities which are not pointed out in other civilization texts like they are in ancient Egyptian. and much I used does not come from the bible.

 

[refamat]

I suppose that some anthropologists somewhere must have compiled lists of "taboos" among very primitive peoples with no previous contacts; I wonder what similarities might be found?

if you have no knowledge of same, why even suppose?

 

[refamat]

The only ones which are generally upheld nowadays are the ones about killing, stealing, adultery, and bearing false witness.

guess you haven't been to the bible belt...whole and complete "civilization" unto itself...not sure if it's in decay or if it never got out of the gutter though

 

[Harte]

well, not so sure it is such a "slim" similarity when you take into account whomever moses (mosis?) was, very likely had a substantial knowledge of the book of the dead as evidenced by "non-royalty" tombs that have been uncovered in the last 20 years or so, which show, it only took money and influence to be buried with the same rights as the pharaohs.

Prior to foolish speculation on what "Moses knew," it would seem only fitting that one would spend some time on whether Moses even existed.

But if you believe he did, then why would you think he needed to learn of the pyramid texts from such coarse means as was employed by the mere commoners of his time?

Forgot Moses was a prince, did you?

Harte

 

[Marduk]

I heard you were good with ancient history, but maybe that is misplaced if you cannot see the similarities which are not pointed out in other civilization texts like they are in ancient Egyptian. and much I used does not come from the bible.

Everything you are claiming is biblical in origin
Isn't this thread really just about the origin of the ten commandments, how is that not from the bible
You are claiming the exodus is responsible for spreading egyptian hymns, when in reality Judah was a vassal state of Egypt under King Necho, now even if I'm conceding that the ten commandments were taken directly from Egyptians hymns (which I'm not) which do you think is a more likely method of transmission

A fictional character with no evidence of his existence during an event that never happened or a factual occurence supported by both archaeology and the writings of the cultures themselves

Now I suggest you go back and research the list of law texts I linked you to, they were all compiled by semitic cultures, thats semitic, the same as the Hebrews were semitic, and something the Egyptians weren't and they were all law codes that the Hebrews would have had access to.

and I'll say this again because you don't seem to be able to get it, the bible is not a history book. Don't use anything in it as factual.

if you insist on using your own limited understanding of history backed by your understanding of the bible in this thread youre going to get torn apart, oh wait, you used the word "belief" several times and you are trying to justify bibical verse, youre a christian arent you, remember Matthew 5:39

 

[CriticalSock]

I believe that the flood story in the bible has it's origins in the book "Farlig midsommar" (Lit. Dangerous Midsummer) written by the Goddess Tove Jansson wherein a great flood sweeps through moominvalley and Moominpappa, Moominmama, Moomintroll and the others take refuge in a floating theatre, drifting for 40 days and nights rescuing other small creatures along the way. This work was widely available at the time the bible was being written but then by the Goddesses will it was hidden from the eyes of mortal man until the year 1954 (a highly symbolic number) when it was published once more for the education and enlightenment of mankind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moominsummer_Madness

 

[refamat]

Prior to foolish speculation on what "Moses knew," it would seem only fitting that one would spend some time on whether Moses even existed.

But if you believe he did, then why would you think he needed to learn of the pyramid texts from such coarse means as was employed by the mere commoners of his time?

Forgot Moses was a prince, did you?

Harte

no I didn't forget what was said about him, I was making a point that not only did the royals want to be able to travel to the heavens, which is the basic promise made by Akhenaten to the "masses" not just his family, which was also carried forward in time by "moses", whom I believe was one of the royal family or a very high vizer or priest, since the name, spelled moses, or mosis, would still be a reference to "son of" as in Thutmose, Thutmosis, or Tuthmosis, and knowledge of the scared rituals would be a family or priestly function to represent the dead in their stead during interment.

the fact that this is overlooked by some in this thread is an indication of a lack of ancient history knowledge, or just plain biasing against an idea that isn't their own.

 

[refamat]

The fact that certain biblical names are not mentioned in Egyptian archives isn't an issue as much as those that are (Thutmose,sometimes read as Thutmosis or Tuthmosis where mose, mosis, means "son of") and I would like any of the most learned to explain how there isn't a connection there for the name. The other names like Joseph and Abraham do not concern me as much as the carry over of basic religious philosophy from Akhenaten to Judaism along with many known ancient Egyptian customs, terms, and traditions that preceded the 18th Dynasty.
That Akhenaten refined his father's religious views to just one of the 42 gods (Atun) and specified what he would do for the people upon his death, speaks a lot for both the basis one one sect of Judaism and for christianity in general. One also has to wonder about how judaism, christianity, and islam (Sikhism may as well)end prayers with amen which appears to be a plea or request for the Egyptian god Amun (also spelt Amon, Amoun, Amen) to accept and take their prayer to the heavens.
People who ignore torahic (and later biblical) references may be missing another translation of earlier texts with which to base against rosetta stone type translations.

 

[refamat]

I believe that the flood story in the bible has it's origins in the book "Farlig midsommar" (Lit. Dangerous Midsummer) written by the Goddess Tove Jansson wherein a great flood sweeps through moominvalley and Moominpappa, Moominmama, Moomintroll and the others take refuge in a floating theatre, drifting for 40 days and nights rescuing other small creatures along the way. This work was widely available at the time the bible was being written but then by the Goddesses will it was hidden from the eyes of mortal man until the year 1954 (a highly symbolic number) when it was published once more for the education and enlightenment of mankind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moominsummer_Madness

there may be two real oral traditions of flooding which account for the flood story, one is the Ryan-Pitman Theory, where the Mediterranean floods into the basin that is now the Black Sea, another is a more recent theory about a massive glacial lake in North America breaking through it's ice dams and raising the oceans as much as 14 feet about the then current sea level (which may also link to the Ryan-Pitman Theory).

 

[Harte]

there may be two real oral traditions of flooding which account for the flood story, one is the Ryan-Pitman Theory, where the Mediterranean floods into the basin that is now the Black Sea, another is a more recent theory about a massive glacial lake in North America breaking through it's ice dams and raising the oceans as much as 14 feet about the then current sea level (which may also link to the Ryan-Pitman Theory).

I assure you there are far more possible oral flood traditions than the ones you speculate might exist associated with the floods you mention.

Altai Flood:

http://geology.mines.edu/faculty/Klee/AltaiFlood.pdf

This page lists nine different known or surmised megafloods in the past that could have oral traditions associated with them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(prehistoric)#Megafloods

Harte

 

[IMST]

guess you haven't been to the bible belt...whole and complete "civilization" unto itself...not sure if it's in decay or if it never got out of the gutter though

Wait, what? What other commandments besides stealing, killing, false witness and adultery are generally upheld in the bible belt?

I could see no other gods, but certainly not sabbath keeping, no graven images, father/mother honoring or no coveting.

 

[Marduk]

there may be two real oral traditions of flooding which account for the flood story, one is the Ryan-Pitman Theory, where the Mediterranean floods into the basin that is now the Black Sea, another is a more recent theory about a massive glacial lake in North America breaking through it's ice dams and raising the oceans as much as 14 feet about the then current sea level (which may also link to the Ryan-Pitman Theory).

The flood story that appears in the bible is clearly the same as that which appears in Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh: -
When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
Genesis 7
8 And he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground. 9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him to the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth
Gilgamesh
I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.
Genesis 7
7 And he sent forth a raven, and it went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth

what youre missing here is that the Gilgamesh flood story is based on that in Atrahasis,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth#Babylonian_.28Epic_of_Gilgamesh.29
which isn't described as a global flood, but a riverine one,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atra-Hasis#Literary_inheritance
the rivers flooding in Mesopotamia was part of the countries character because it happened so often, so theres no need to look for a large flood to match the origins of the Biblical great flood. This is well known by scholars I am surprised you missed it, what this means of course is that there never was a great flood which is described in the bible in the same way that the Exodus never happened either, large parts of the old testament are based on older myths, others are just fabricated in order to give the Hebrews a cosmology where before they were just another group of indistinguished semites.

btw, Ryan and Pitmans flood is just a hypothesis lacking any solid evidence. It had actually been disproved by Russian geologists before Ryan and Pitman came up with it, as such it is an answer to a question that has never needed to be asked

this youtube animation was made with the most up to date palao shoreline data in existence, the area R & P claim was flooded in 5600bce was clearly already inundated before 10,000bce
Ryan and Pitmans flood didnt happen and even if it did, how is that possibly connected with the Missoula floods, that was 8000 years earlier