Merged Obama enters GZ Mosque debate

[Cicero]

You use the same fallacious arguments in the gay marriage threads; presenting supposedly credible sources who agree with a point of view as opposed to arguing the validity of that point of view.

Why is it you think this is a cogent method of argumentation?

Do you think labeling all those who disagree with your opinion on these subjects, and your severely uninformed opinion represents your entire repertoire, as "bigots," racists" and the like is a persuasive argument?

The "bigots" are piling up on the liberal side and the Muslim side about the "wisdom" of placing the mosque in this location.

POTUS Obama
Dr. Howe Dean
Rep. Mike McMahon
Rep. Tim Bishop
Rep. Steve Israel
Harry Reid
Rep. Michael Arcuri
Raheel Raza, a Muslim Canadian journalist
Rima Fakih, the first Muslim Miss USA,

 

[thaiboxerken]

Have you ever known a person who tells a joke that they think is funny and clever, but really doesn't impress anyone?

 

[johnny karate]

Do you think labeling all those who disagree with your opinion on these subjects, and your severely uninformed opinion represents your entire repertoire, as "bigots," racists" and the like is a persuasive argument?

To protest a Muslim community center because you find it offensive is a bigoted opinion. People who oppose the building of this particular Muslim community center in this particular location are either bigots, or are kowtowing to bigots for the sake of political expediency.

I'll leave it to you to figure out who's who instead of me engaging in some juvenile game of "Spot the Bigot" just appease your sense of one-upmanship.

And since I seem to be so woefully uninformed, pray tell, what non-bigoted reasons are there to oppose the building of this Muslim community center in this particular location?

I'm sure your answer will be as thoughtful and as enlightening as the one you give to similar questions regarding gay marriage.

 

[Dr. Fascism]

Great, now that loon Ron Paul is even jumping in with his own commentary:

http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-08-20/r...iots-stop-your-demagogy-about-the-nyc-mosque/

If the gold standard, laissez-faire libertarianism, or anti-abortion stances hasn't convinced you this guy is nuts, this article should.

 

[leftysergeant]

http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-08-20/r...iots-stop-your-demagogy-about-the-nyc-mosque/

If the gold standard, laissez-faire libertarianism, or anti-abortion stances hasn't convinced you this guy is nuts, this article should.

Bull flops. It's the only thing I ever heard him get completely right.

 

[FireGarden]

She has indeed provided a new opinion from a new source that is not presented by the lame stream media. That is the opinion of a Muslim who challenges the "wisdom" of the location for the mosque.

That's not a new opinion. The only thing new about it is that it was said by a Muslim. ie: a new source.

She is still wrong to confuse all Muslims with those who murdered on 9/11 -- regardless of her faith.

 

[Praktik]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/newly_released_ground_zero_imam_tUWczuKcOs9ERhZ9PO3fZM



The claim that America has the blood of a half million Iraqi children on its hands is sheer GARBAGE. Nor has the US killed more innocent Muslims than the number of innocent Muslim and non-Muslims that al-Qaeda, Saddam's regime and holdouts from Saddam's regime have killed. Rauf's statement was nothing less than anti-American NONSENSE. And until he publically retracts those claims, I'm certainly not willing to trust his motives in wanting to build a Mosque anywhere near the 9/11 site. Also, his statement that the US "political structure is Sharia Law compliant" and that Shariah law is "not far from what we read in the Declaration of Independence" is also nothing but empty dishonest rhetoric ... certainly where women and non-Muslims are concerned. He should acknowledge that fact before we proceed.

So ummm.. what does his have to do with the Mosque? Should Noam Chomsky and Amy Goodman have to renounce similar views re: Iraq before they buy a house? or choose to start a bookstore somewhere? It may seem out of this world in the conserva-bubble, but such views on Iraq are widespread not just in America, but in Canada and Europe too. Its not that far fetched a claim - we all know where it came from - and i'm sure its been dissected here on JREF to death. Unfortunately the imagined victories of conservative posters on JREF aren't communicated too widely, and the claim re: 500 000 Iraqi children being understood as "GARBAGE" may not be as widely held as the contestants here on JREF might think.

Regarding his comments on Sharia law is this not a religious test you're demanding?

I'm not willing to take your word on it and I believe his conception of Sharia law is very different from the sense you appear to be alleging above.

Seems to me a dangerous precedent, to have decisions on the right to build contingent on one's answer to religious and political questions.

 

[Chaos]

Zakaria pointed out the obvious yesterday:

- Al Qaeda bombed Sufi mosques and has killed hundreds (thousands in total perhaps) of Sufi muslims since Sufi Islam is tantamount to heresy for them.

- Since Sufi Islam and America share the same enemy, and have had blood spilled by the same enemy, we should try to work together as much as possible.

- the mosque in Lower Manhattan is a Sufi mosque.

All pretty basic points, but I'd like to see some of the people in this thread who wonder how "appropriate" it is for a mosque to be located near ground zero argue against these points - cause the only way I think it could be done with a straight face is if the individual understands no difference between Sufi and Sunni and Shia and for whom all of Islam is one religion.

I for one, wonder why all these Christians are wearing magic underwear and worshipping golden tablets, after all, if the mormons do it don't they all?

Give it up. Such subtle distinctions as "friend" and "enemy" are obviously beyond such a wise, educated, cosmopolitan and tolerant group as the one we are talking about here.

I wonder how long it is going to be before the first of these wise, educated, cosmopolitan and tolerant people demands that all those terrorists muslims are forced wear a green crescent badge when in public, so people can instantly see who is one of them. After all, letting them live their lives in the US, like all other law-abiding citizens, enjoying the same legal and constitutional rights as everyone else, is clearly an insult to the American values of freedom and democracy, right?

 

[Praktik]

Ya you're probably right Chaos, and after all, he talked about 9/11 and Iraq like a lefty or a paleoconservative - so doesn't that make him an extremist fundamentalist?

 

[I Am The Scum]

The claim that America has the blood of a half million Iraqi children on its hands is sheer GARBAGE.

As offensive as you may find the man's comments to be, you're not really doing anything to show that his comments are incorrect, which makes your whole complaint fairly vacuous.

As far as I can tell, almost everything he's said in the clip is true. You have referred to the statement in regards to American sanctions as "GARBAGE." I don't know enough the issue to say whether or not he's right. Could you explain to me why you disagree?

 

[Lurker]

Also, his statement that the US "political structure is Sharia Law compliant" and that Shariah law is "not far from what we read in the Declaration of Independence" is also nothing but empty dishonest rhetoric ... certainly where women and non-Muslims are concerned. He should acknowledge that fact before we proceed.

I am glad you are hear to tell us what Sharia Law is. I am sure you belive that ALL Muslims interpret Sharia Law exactly the same. Just like Christians who all interpret Biblical Law the same.

 

[pgwenthold]

I really do find that strange. It's really akin to someone protesting the erection of a Protestant church next to a middle school because of the Catholic molestation scandal.

This is the analogy I have been thinking about, too. Originally I was just using "build a catholic church next to a middle school" but I realized that wasn't even right, and we needed to bring in a different religious sect. I was thinking more of the Mormons myself.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

To protest a Muslim community center because you find it offensive is a bigoted opinion. People who oppose the building of this particular Muslim community center in this particular location are either bigots, or are kowtowing to bigots for the sake of political expediency.

Well said.

Personally, I have more of a problem with those who are kowtowing than the nutjobs. The entire thing could be calmed down by people in positions of authority (including the bully pulpit of the presidency) treating this as a non-controversy since we should all be united in support of First Amendment rights. Then the nutjobs would be seen for what they are.

But again, I also blame the media for allowing misinformation to be repeated without doing enough public fact checking (that is, pointing out factually incorrect statements when people make them). I think the media allows this because a good "controversy" makes ratings go up.

I think there is an extremely small (but extremely vocal) minority of outright bigots (for example, those who really think every Muslim is a terrorist and every mosque a terrorist training center), then a huge mass of people with less severe biases that are letting themselves be manipulated by misinformation, and then people who know better and are playing along for one reason or another (politicians and the media).

However, I will say this again: there is no rational, reasonable argument to support denying this group a building permit to build their mosque/community center in lower Manhattan.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

This is the analogy I have been thinking about, too. Originally I was just using "build a catholic church next to a middle school" but I realized that wasn't even right, and we needed to bring in a different religious sect. I was thinking more of the Mormons myself.

Yes, that is a reasonable analogy.

I'd add to it that even when there was a strong (and very similar) anti-Catholic sentiment in the U.S. (when people were afraid of puppet politicians who would be answerable to the Vatican rather than their constituents--and the ethnic bigotry that went along with it), I don't think anyone ever suggested that a given Catholic school or church be denied a building permit because of their religion. I'd like to hear about it if anyone knows of such an incident.

 

[Praktik]

As offensive as you may find the man's comments to be, you're not really doing anything to show that his comments are incorrect, which makes your whole complaint fairly vacuous.

As far as I can tell, almost everything he's said in the clip is true. You have referred to the statement in regards to American sanctions as "GARBAGE." I don't know enough the issue to say whether or not he's right. Could you explain to me why you disagree?

Actually maybe we could agree NOT to rehash whether American sanctions were a contributor to the avoidable death of 500 000 Iraqi children after the first Iraq War?

The whole point of bringing up the Imam's view on this was to paint him as a potential extremist or supporter of extremists. The actual debate is not really important - and I think, rather insoluble. How are we to really say how much the sanctions contributed? One could say that if Saddam sold his palaces and distributed things more equally and found ways to keep up the infrastructure things wouldn't have been so bad even with the sanctions. But then, one could also say that we all knew what kind of guy Saddam was, and the fact that the pain of the sanctions would effect the lower rungs of society the most drastically should have been anticipated.

There really is no right answer, apart from a wishy-washy "American sanctions and Saddam's nature killed 500 000 children unnecessarily" - i'd put a bit more weight to Saddam maybe given his total control of the country, but still, this is not something we could give out % "contributions" for with any accuracy.

People with an ideological axe to grind will focus more on one side than the other and this applies not just to the Imam but also BeAChooser, and many more people besides. The idea that American sanctions killed 500 000 children is actually fairly widespread and is no indicator of extremism just by its being espoused. In fact, should all Islamic extremism end tomorrow, I would expect large - near unanimous - majorities of the Now-Moderate Islamic world to agree with that contention. It is utopian to believe that after the Defeat of Islamism, that the muslim world would come to see the world through BAC's eyes.

The "American sanctions killed kids" idea is one that people like BeAChooser react to with vehemence, but this tells us more about where people like him lie and very little about one's predisposition to extremism, given the millions of lily-white Americans on the left and the right who believe the same thing and millions more in the Muslim world who aren't extremists who also believe the same thing. I wouldn't be surprised that among Islamists they also believe that, but then again most heroin addicts started with tobacco - is tobacco a determinant of heroin use?

 

[Alferd_Packer]

I don't think anyone ever suggested that a given Catholic school or church be denied a building permit because of their religion. I'd like to hear about it if anyone knows of such an incident.

In 1936, the WASP - ruled town of Winnetka, IL tried to keep the German Catholics from building a church in their town.

Between 1936 and 1939, Faith, Hope’s religious services were conducted in the New Trier High School auditorium. Construction of the original church, convent, and school was completed in 1939 after a long delay caused by the village’s denial of the parish’s request for a building permit. The parish appealed this ruling, and in an April 1939 landmark decision, the Illinois Supreme Court unanimously overruled the village’s position.

http://www.winnetkahistory.org/index.php?id=150

 

[Chaos]

Ya you're probably right Chaos, and after all, he talked about 9/11 and Iraq like a lefty or a paleoconservative - so doesn't that make him an extremist fundamentalist?

Just to clear up any potential misunderstanding: I have no problem at all with Zakaria - he´s one of the sanest voices in the US media. The problem I have is with all those enlightened people who want to revoke legally and constitutionally guaranteed rights of law-abiding citizens, because these citizens are different from them and because they are scared out of their narrow, nationalism-addled minds.

 

[Praktik]

oh ya I was joking with ya not AT ya buddy...

 

[Biscuit]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/newly_released_ground_zero_imam_tUWczuKcOs9ERhZ9PO3fZM



The claim that America has the blood of a half million Iraqi children on its hands is sheer GARBAGE. Nor has the US killed more innocent Muslims than the number of innocent Muslim and non-Muslims that al-Qaeda, Saddam's regime and holdouts from Saddam's regime have killed. Rauf's statement was nothing less than anti-American NONSENSE. And until he publically retracts those claims, I'm certainly not willing to trust his motives in wanting to build a Mosque anywhere near the 9/11 site. Also, his statement that the US "political structure is Sharia Law compliant" and that Shariah law is "not far from what we read in the Declaration of Independence" is also nothing but empty dishonest rhetoric ... certainly where women and non-Muslims are concerned. He should acknowledge that fact before we proceed.

As another pointed out the argument about how many children died due to U.S. sanctions is besides the point and not indicative of extremism. Unless you consider any criticism of the U.S. as an extremist POV. I don't think any one country or any one policy can be used to determine exactly what killed all those children. A number of factors, including the U.S., played into that. If you have definitive proof that U.S. sanctions were not a contributing factor than please share. I would consider the blind defense of U.S. policy to be more extremist than criticism of it.

As for Sharia law you may want to find exactly what Rauf's beliefs are regarding this. There is not a stone tablet that lays out all Sharia law that is unchanging and easily interpreted like a Muslim Code of Hammurabi. Once again it is you who is taking an extremist view. Rauf has acted as a diplomate between our cultures for both republican and democrat administrations. He is recognized as a moderate and a bridge builder. Perhaps when you have accomplished as much and are recognized as something other than an extremist you can start making demands of such accomplished people.

 

[Lurker]

I am left to ponder what BAC and his ilk think a moderate muslim would look and act like? Do they demand 100% adherance to the American agenda? No criticism allowed if one wants to be labeled a moderate muslim. Any criticism of US foreign policy condemns the Muslim to radical status.