Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

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A.A.Alfie said:
Go back and review. You clearly haven't read and/or understood a word written.
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Such a sweeping statement! And you're a skeptic ?

Please explain which religion is being taught and how atheists agnostics and everyone else can get sober together?
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Nonsensical sentence. I also never said that a religion was being taught. Perhaps you're the one who hasn't read and/or understood a word written.

Even if that were true, why/how is it "harmful"?
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Because it teaches you that without God you can't do squat.
 
Dancing David said:
And what are the first seven, a bunch of moralizing and wallowing in self examination. An inventory is useless.

then they should cut the ******** and just say so.

And all other choices except to drink. They can still CHOOSE to walk away! That is something addicts don't want to admit.

they can walk away after the first drink.

they just choose not to do so.

And that is just part of the problem, you can't control the amount you use, but you can always CHOOSE to stop. Any time, even after the first drink.

Now if you drink so much you are in a state of automatic inebriation, that may be harder IE blackout.

Now why do I say this, I live with OCD, I do not HAVE to engage in a compulsion, why do I engage in a compulsion? To avoid a panic attack.

I can CHOOSE not to engage in a compulsive behavior, the consequence is a panic attack.
And then I can practice coping with it.
Addicts can CHOOSE to stop their use after one exposure, they just don't choose to do so.

It is easier to choose to not use before you start but you can ALWAYS CHOOSE TO STOP and walk away.


The twelve steps won't teach you how to swim.

Um 'fearless personal inventory' is so vague as to be useless!
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Nice rant on topic you don't appear to have much first-hand knowledge of. Group behavior and individual behavior have different dynamics, sfaik.

How about:
1. take accountability for our choices.
2. develop a behavioral plan to modify our behavior.
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That's basically what attending AA meetings helps one accomplish ... or it does for some. At least three posters in this thread can attest to that; of course the bottom line is 'what must I do to not drink'.

The inventory is a bunch of pseudo-freudian twaddle.
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How much would a behaviorist charge to mentor/teach modification techniques, how long might that training be expected to last, and how effective has that been working with alcoholics?

Stats measuring 'successful outcome' (whatever that is in this case) for that technique might be better than stats for AA.

For example:
http://adam.about.com/reports/000056_7.htm

You pays your money and takes your choice. I suspect CBT costs hundreds of times more than AA meeting attendance.
 
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With all due respect Dancing David:), I think a lot of people with major substance abuse issues can't always "choose not to use" (not through any fault of their own).

Though clearly, many other people can still make choices (but to the extent to which they can make a choice it's not clear to me that such people actually need to stop "using" their drug of choice). It's the people that aren't able to effect change in their lives and are engaging in life-threatening behaviours that need the most help.

And I think this is why almost NO form of therapy currently available is particularly effective (though studies of breaking addiction patterns with psychotropics hold some promise, but these are unfortunately frowned upon in the current political climate). And this is why any program with a "one size fits all" approach is doomed to abysmal recovery rates.

I think that we will eventually find that most effective is treating the underlying problems that cause people to fall into heavy abuse patterns (Schizophrenia, Depression, Anxiety, OCD, Chronic and Severe Pain, Genetic predisposition to addictive behaviour patterns, coping with personal Financial Problems, coping with abuse, coping with living in an oppressed population group, coping with living in a highly demanding society that forces most people to work for less and less and being put out of work and out of house by Fat Cats who control and destroy economies, coping with living in a War Zone...etc, etc.). In some of these cases, helping people to USE drugs more effectively, might actually be better than helping them to stop using.

So I think a lot of recovery approaches are "twaddle", from AA to RR, though each may hold some benefit for a few people respectively. But at issue is the religiosity of AA, which is undeniable.

The link AlBell provided is very clear that AA has a "Spiritual" component, which is just a nice way of saying Religious component. ;)

And basically AlBell, AAAlfie and others, if the "God Stuff" is unnecessary, then why continue to OFFICIALLY keep it as part of the program? You and AA are begging the question of why it's even in the program at all. Why not just have a 4 Step program?

GB

PS: It's about time society got of its moral high horse regarding the habitual use of drugs
 
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Gandalfs Beard said:
The link AlBell provided is very clear that AA has a "Spiritual" component, which is just a nice way of saying Religious component. ;)
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I at least don't agree that "Spiritual" = "Religious". Nor does AA as I understand the program.

Even an atheist through contemplation and meditation may find an immanent or transcendent nature of reality that is not religious, although religions may be based on humans attempting to describe those experiences.

And basically AlBell, AAAlfie and others, if the "God Stuff" is unnecessary, then why continue to OFFICIALLY keep it as part of the program? You and AA are begging the question of why it's even in the program at all. Why not just have a 4 Step program?
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My comment explains "why".
 
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AlBell said:
I at least don't agree that "Spiritual" = "Religious". Nor does AA as I understand the program.

Even an atheist through contemplation and meditation may find an immanent or transcendent nature of reality that is not religious, although religions may be based on humans attempting to describe those experiences.


My comment explains "why".
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In the case of AA, Spiritual does = Religious. The constant references to "God" and "Him" are very specifically Religious.

But I concur that a Non-theist can still contemplate transcendence without being religious (as I do myself). However, I know the difference between Empirical Knowledge and "Spiritual" Knowledge. One is Falsifiable (and secular), and the other is Not.

And NO, your comment doesn't even begin to explain "why".:rolleyes:

GB
 
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Gandalfs Beard said:
In the case of AA, Spiritual does = Religious. The constant references to "God" and "Him" are very specifically Religious.

But I concur that a Non-theist can still contemplate transcendence without being religious (as I do myself). However, I know the difference between Empirical Knowledge and "Spiritual" Knowledge. One is Falsifiable (and secular), and the other is Not.

And NO, your comment doesn't even begin to explain "why".:rolleyes:

GB
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At this point we can agree to disagree. You will not change my mind, nor me yours.

TTFN.
 
AlBell said:
Nice rant on topic you don't appear to have much first-hand knowledge of. Group behavior and individual behavior have different dynamics, sfaik.
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And what do you know of my personal history? Individual behavior is what I was talking about.
Zero apparently.
That's basically what attending AA meetings helps one accomplish ... or it does for some. At least three posters in this thread can attest to that; of course the bottom line is 'what must I do to not drink'.
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Yup and the steps are superfluous. If you read what I said early in the thread , I said I like DFD groups.
How much would a behaviorist charge to mentor/teach modification techniques, how long might that training be expected to last, and how effective has that been working with alcoholics?
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I said you have to choose not to use, did I not. the problem is that most people don't try.
Stats measuring 'successful outcome' (whatever that is in this case) for that technique might be better than stats for AA.

For example:
http://adam.about.com/reports/000056_7.htm

You pays your money and takes your choice. I suspect CBT costs hundreds of times more than AA meeting attendance.
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I never said CBT, did I.

Nope if you read what I posted early in the thread I said something else was what I preferred. A relapse prevention model.
 
Gandalfs Beard said:
With all due respect Dancing David:), I think a lot of people with major substance abuse issues can't always "choose not to use" (not through any fault of their own).
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having known many addicts, I believe that they can, except when they are sooooo intoxicated they are in a black out. They can choose not to use, but they choose otherwise.
It is harder but not impossible , once intoxicated.
What people forget is the huge number of choices people take to use and continue use.
Though clearly, many other people can still make choices (but to the extent to which they can make a choice it's not clear to me that such people actually need to stop "using" their drug of choice). It's the people that aren't able to effect change in their lives and are engaging in life-threatening behaviours that need the most help.
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And having talked to many of them, I believe that they do choose to use, they rationalize it, they usually don't want to face the consequences of not using.
And I think this is why almost NO form of therapy currently available is particularly effective (though studies of breaking addiction patterns with psychotropics hold some promise, but these are unfortunately frowned upon in the current political climate). And this is why any program with a "one size fits all" approach is doomed to abysmal recovery rates.
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I agree.
I think that we will eventually find that most effective is treating the underlying problems that cause people to fall into heavy abuse patterns (Schizophrenia, Depression, Anxiety, OCD, Chronic and Severe Pain, Genetic predisposition to addictive behaviour patterns, coping with personal Financial Problems, coping with abuse, coping with living in an oppressed population group, coping with living in a highly demanding society that forces most people to work for less and less and being put out of work and out of house by Fat Cats who control and destroy economies, coping with living in a War Zone...etc, etc.). In some of these cases, helping people to USE drugs more effectively, might actually be better than helping them to stop using.
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I can't approve of use by addicts.
So I think a lot of recovery approaches are "twaddle", from AA to RR, though each may hold some benefit for a few people respectively. But at issue is the religiosity of AA, which is undeniable.
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You will note , having stated my opinion on particular members I am staying out of that one.

I think the 'sponser' system is a greater problem for AA.
 
Dancing David said:
It is easier to choose to not use before you start but you can ALWAYS CHOOSE TO STOP and walk away.
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Thank you Nancy Reagan. Hey, this could surely be of great benefit to people trying to lose weight, too: "Tired of being fat? Just quit eating so damn much". Poof! Problem solved!

We don't need a program; all we need is a bumper sticker.
 
Dymanic said:
Thank you Nancy Reagan. Hey, this could surely be of great benefit to people trying to lose weight, too: "Tired of being fat? Just quit eating so damn much". Poof! Problem solved!

We don't need a program; all we need is a bumper sticker.
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I'm not sure that DD meant "Just say no," but that might be the logical inference from his point. If so, I find that position little different from most AAers (except their mantra is "Just say no with the help of God", hmmm...that probably was ACTUALLY what Nancy Reagan meant). ;)

GB
 
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Yikes!

I started this thread and had no idea it would go to 17 pages.

A few things:

Any meeting that ends with, "The Lord's Prayer" is religious. Period.

By the way, try telling any Irish Catholic that, "The Lord's Prayer" is not religious (as my husband's first counselor insisted.) There's a Catholic version and a Protestant version and we all know how well that played out in Belfast.

I also personally disagree with the AA mandate of "taking inventory." Telling a proper :)counselor your "confessions" is a voluntary action, more of a sharing process so that you can reach a healthier goal. And properly trained counselors are trained to listen, and won't be judgmental; instead, they will try to help you seek a different path towards your goal. There's no forced sense of confessing, which leads to shame and guilt.

I also find it appalling that coffee, sugar and donuts are provided at AA. Nutrition is key in quitting drinking. Alcohol is sugar. Sugar cravings can be relieved by eliminating sugar and all sugar substitutes (with the exception of Stevia.) Anyone quitting drinking should see a proper dietitian/nutritionist. It will help ENORMOUSLY.

Does Cognitive Behavioral Therapy cost more than AA? Yes. Would that it were free, as it should be. But it offers more practical methods of dealing with feelings. And most books by Dr. Albert Ellis, a leading authority on CBT, can be found for free at your local library.

My resentment at 12-step programs stems from the fact that they are held up as THE only way to quit, and they don't teach you how to think logically. Instead you get, "your best thinking got you here," and "put yourself in the hands of a higher power."

No, I won't put myself in the hands of a Higher Power. Not to deal with depression, not to lose weight, not to learn Spanish. I spent my whole youth doing that. It didn't work and I'm still trying to undue the damage done to my critical thinking skills.

Oh, and by the way, I don't drink. Used to. Stopped. Used to smoke cigarettes, too. Stopped. Used to eat sweets like they were going to be outlawed. Stopped that, too.

How? Lots of research, a change of diet and habits, and a terrific therapist. My insurance pays for my visits, except a copay of $10. A bargain for such an investment in mental health. (Just to give you a quick glimpse of his opinions, I once asked him what he thought about acupuncture. His reply? "I don't.")

My thanks to Gandalf's Beard and others who have made very concrete points and good arguments, far better than I ever could have. You are all teaching me valuable lessons in how to argue and debate. :)
 
Nanny Ogg said:
Any meeting that ends with, "The Lord's Prayer" is religious. Period.
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In a very general manner, I would agree; that is a religious meeting.
Presumably that meeting wishes to run that group with a religious backdrop. That does not mean that all meetings nor AA as a whole are religious.

Nanny Ogg said:
I also personally disagree with the AA mandate of "taking inventory." Telling a proper :)counselor your "confessions" is a voluntary action, more of a sharing process so that you can reach a healthier goal. And properly trained counselors are trained to listen, and won't be judgmental; instead, they will try to help you seek a different path towards your goal. There's no forced sense of confessing, which leads to shame and guilt.
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The steps are "suggestions", if you don't want to do it, dont. By the way, if you do your stepwork and want to share it with a professional counsellor rather than a sponsor - go ahead, there is nothing that says you can't.
I have a friend who is a non deist, she did this step and then - get this - went to a catholic priest to share it. She said she felt she knew she could trust a preist with her inventory.

Nanny Ogg said:
I also find it appalling that coffee, sugar and donuts are provided at AA. Nutrition is key in quitting drinking. Alcohol is sugar. Sugar cravings can be relieved by eliminating sugar and all sugar substitutes (with the exception of Stevia.) Anyone quitting drinking should see a proper dietitian/nutritionist. It will help ENORMOUSLY.
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I find it appalling that such things are placed on the supermarket shelves, but there you go.
Talk about trivial! :boggled:

AA is concerned only with alcohol. If a member wishes to see sa nutritianist, they should go ahead and do so.

Nanny Ogg said:
Does Cognitive Behavioral Therapy cost more than AA? Yes. Would that it were free, as it should be. But it offers more practical methods of dealing with feelings. And most books by Dr. Albert Ellis, a leading authority on CBT, can be found for free at your local library.
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I teach both (12 steps and CBT): horses for courses. If one doesn't work, try another. AA isn't for everyone and it wont work for everyone.

It would be unusual for an Alky to turn up to AA having not tried something else before it; in actual fact, most of us had tried everything before we went to AA: Priests, counsellors, dieticians, psychologists, psychiatrists, barmen, prostitutes, family firends, other self help groups etc. And nothing worked.

Nanny Ogg said:
My resentment at 12-step programs stems from the fact that they are held up as THE only way to quit, and they don't teach you how to think logically.
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AA does not say AA is the "only way to quit"; individual members might say this.
And AA does exactly the opposite of what you claim - it does teach people how to think logically where once they didn't.

Nanny Ogg said:
No, I won't put myself in the hands of a Higher Power. Not to deal with depression, not to lose weight, not to learn Spanish. I spent my whole youth doing that. It didn't work and I'm still trying to undue the damage done to my critical thinking skills.
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No-one has aslked you to do any of these things, and I am sure that AA hasn't either.

Nanny Ogg said:
Oh, and by the way, I don't drink. Used to. Stopped. Used to smoke cigarettes, too. Stopped. Used to eat sweets like they were going to be outlawed. Stopped that, too.
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Am I to assume that because you managed this, that everyone can? If only it were that simple. :boggled:
 
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I'd like to thank everyone who played in this thread.

I'm a freelance writer and have a contract to write for various addiction/alcoholic sites. This thread has been a gold mine of ideas for my sometimes topic-starved brain.

Thanks, all!
 
no problem

Its just funny that something like that would get removed by moderators considering all the other carp that passes for discussion.
 
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