9-11 Presentation at NMSR, May 19 2010

I don't see the problem. The building had always carried that weight anyway.

So you have no clue what the difference is between a static and a dynamic load.

I am shocked.

I don't understand why people who don't know any physics attempt to pretend they do.
 
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I don't see the problem. The building had always carried that weight anyway. It's not as if it was new weight added from outside the system. In fact that weight was very much diminished by the pulverisation of the concrete and the shedding of masses of rubble spilling from all four sides of the building as can be seen in many videos. Chandlers analysis in particular gives the idea..

The difference from before, where the building was always carrying that weight, is that once the collapse was initiated, the upper section gained velocity. In colloquial terms, it started moving faster and faster. And the collisions didn't slow things down to zero, either. The impacts slowed the falling mass slightly (conserving momentum, of course), but the fall speed increased from floor to floor.

Chandler. That's gonna be sweet. Tune in tomorrow night when I specifically use Chandler's physics phlubs to put the entire "truth" movement out to pasture.

He only underestimates the dynamic impacts by a factor of 100.

He would not pass a freshman physics course in any of your better colleges and universities.

Cheers, Dave
 
So you have no clue what the difference is between a static and a dynamic load.

I am shocked.

I don't understand why people who don't know any physics attempt to pretend they do.
Static..........That's when you rub your feet on carpet, dynamic is just really cool. STAWMAN.........STRAWMAN......








:rolleyes:


:D




:p
 
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I've actually found that the insults tossed at me tend to suggest that I don't understand the very principles that, in fact, debunk the official collapse hypothesis. It must be some new kind of 21st century newspeak (or maybe it's just old) to insist that the "debunker" understands something he/she clearly doesn't, and that the opponent, who clearly and demonstrably does understand, "doesn't". I know it's cliche to say it, but it is an Orwellian experience trying to debate "debunkers".
 
I've actually found that the insults tossed at me tend to suggest that I don't understand the very principles that, in fact, debunk the official collapse hypothesis. It must be some new kind of 21st century newspeak (or maybe it's just old) to insist that the "debunker" understands something he/she clearly doesn't, and that the opponent, who clearly and demonstrably does understand, "doesn't". I know it's cliche to say it, but it is an Orwellian experience trying to debate "debunkers".
Why don't you shut us up by posting the math and equations (you know the physics you claim to understand) and get it over with?


I'd be willing to put money on the fact The Almond could back up what he said.

Bet you can't.
 
Why don't you shut us up by posting the math and equations (you know the physics you claim to understand) and get it over with?

I don't think you personally would understand them.

I'd be willing to put money on the fact The Almond could back up what he said.

He's perfectly free to do so.
 
You're failing to indicate what and where these "mistakes" are occurring. You're just saying this in the hopes that anyone else reading this will take your word for it. You have also not explained how "forces can be counterintuitive".
The forces you're attempting to describe, and their application are counter-intuitive. Students get them wrong when they try to let their intuition direct the problem solving, rather than let the mathematics direct it. It's counterintuitive to think of forces as vectors, and as vector sums being integrated over a variety of directions. That's what you're getting wrong.
If you can't get your words right, your argument will not be understood.
I don't care about the mistakes your students made.
You should, you're making them. But you're providing a far less cogent defense of them than they did.
I have clearly provided my explanations with my objections. You have not indicated specifically what and where I make these so-called "mistakes" in my arguments. I sincerely doubt you have the expertise you claim to.
You make 4 mistakes. Those 4 mistakes have caused you to ignore the falling mass of the towers as an energy source. Additionally, you've made a 5th mistake causing you to believe that structures are designed according to codes you've imagined based on your vast experience not being in collapsing buildings.
My bowling ball argument is based on reality. How the impact from the bowling ball refers through the person's body to the ground is irrelevant to the point I was making. The bowling ball falling on someone's head clearly will fracture their skull. The fragments of bowling ball will not. There is no unconsidered factor here. If there is, please identify it specifically.
The bowling ball has the same kinetic energy and momentum whether it is broken or intact. When it falls to the floor, the structure must absorb the same energy.
Please specify what you mean by "falling towers". Are you referring to an upper block crushing through 80 and 90 storeys, or are you referring to rubble?
The towers were once standing, they are no longer. The normal person concludes that they fell. The smart person concludes that all of the mass fell to the ground. The truther concludes that once the mass turned to rubble, it ceased to have mass and was carried off by magical unicorns.
I already pointed out where energy is lost in the system.
This will be exceedingly easy for you to prove with mathematics. Prove that the energy acquired by the structure during its fall was equal to that required to destroy the structure and eliminate all of the remaining mass. Remember, you have to get rid of the mass and the energy. Show your work.
To say that it was only converted into "heat" and "sound" is too stupid to comment to.
When two thinks strike each other, the noise it makes is called sound. This is a place where energy is lost. If the strike causes friction, heat will also be an inevitable result, causing further loss to the system.
Do civil engineers not have to know any physics? I don't think you're an engineer. If you are, you are knowingly lying.
Your opinions on this matter are irrelevant.
Please re-read my post. If you understand the math, please provide the calculations showing that rubble alone can crush through 80 and 90 storeys of intact highrise.

Rubble has mass. That mass was moving. It had a kinetic energy equal to 1/2*m*v2.

You're asserting that rubble has less capacity to do damage than an intact block. I'm asserting that the shape doesn't matter, only the mass and the velocity matter. You need to show a calculation that proves shape matters. Get to it.
 
The forces you're attempting to describe, and their application are counter-intuitive. Students get them wrong when they try to let their intuition direct the problem solving, rather than let the mathematics direct it. It's counterintuitive to think of forces as vectors, and as vector sums being integrated over a variety of directions. That's what you're getting wrong.

What forces, what applications, in what part of my argument? SPECIFY. If you're an engineer, you should be able to put me in my place in half the words and half the time.

You make 4 mistakes. Those 4 mistakes have caused you to ignore the falling mass of the towers as an energy source.

Um, mass does not provide energy. And what four mistakes, exactly? SPECIFY. How do I ignore the kinetic energy of the descending upper block?

Additionally, you've made a 5th mistake causing you to believe that structures are designed according to codes you've imagined based on your vast experience not being in collapsing buildings.

What's the "fifth" mistake? SPECIFY.

The bowling ball has the same kinetic energy and momentum whether it is broken or intact. When it falls to the floor, the structure must absorb the same energy.

OMFG. The bowling ball does not have the same kinetic energy or momentum if it is pieces of bowling ball. What part of this don't you understand? When it falls to the floor (which was not the analogy I used) both the ball and the floor must absorb the impact. Got it?

The towers were once standing, they are no longer. The normal person concludes that they fell. The smart person concludes that all of the mass fell to the ground. The truther concludes that once the mass turned to rubble, it ceased to have mass and was carried off by magical unicorns.

This is not an argument. Did you try to claim you were a civil engineer?

This will be exceedingly easy for you to prove with mathematics. Prove that the energy acquired by the structure during its fall was equal to that required to destroy the structure and eliminate all of the remaining mass.

Might help if you, first of all, understood what it was you're trying to describe.

When two thinks strike each other, the noise it makes is called sound. This is a place where energy is lost. If the strike causes friction, heat will also be an inevitable result, causing further loss to the system.

Thank you for pointing out even more (albeit silly) energy losses in the crush-down hypothesis. Whose side are you on, anyway?

Rubble has mass. That mass was moving. It had a kinetic energy equal to 1/2*m*v2. You're asserting that rubble has less capacity to do damage than an intact block. I'm asserting that the shape doesn't matter, only the mass and the velocity matter.

The mass changes when an intact block becomes pieces of an intact block. There are now numerous independent pieces, all with their own mass, interacting much differently, much less effectively than an intact block. Some of these smaller pieces are lost to the crushing front. They are not involved in the crushing. This is now also a loss of mass.

Which is more likely to be able to do the work to break down a door? A sledgehammer, or pieces of a sledgehammer?
 
Which is more likely to be able to break down a door? A sledgehammer, or pieces of a sledgehammer?

Come to think of it, this is a really good metaphor for the "debunker" arguments. They don't have whole arguments, they have pieces of arguments! LOL. (Laughing at my own joke).
 
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I'm sure some pieces of debris did cause damage, possibly failure. That would produce a partial failure, possibly partial collapse. This happens in natural collapses, obviously.

Surely even this would potentially result in additional debris that may be capable of causing additional failure, would it not?

ergo, I would like to see your response to this.
 
ergo, I would like to see your response to this.

ergo said:
I'm sure some pieces of debris did cause damage, possibly failure. That would produce a partial failure, possibly partial collapse. This happens in natural collapses, obviously.
Cl1mh4224rd said:
Surely even this would potentially result in additional debris that may be capable of causing additional failure, would it not?

In response to the question, it may cause failure, it may just cause some damage. In the case of localized failures, additional debris may be created. This would happen in natural collapses. It's an incredibly weak argument, though. You're talking about some pieces of debris maybe creating other pieces of debris... It's not a point I would dispute, but I really don't see that it helps your argument much. But feel free to elaborate.
 
OMFG. The bowling ball does not have the same kinetic energy or momentum if it is pieces of bowling ball. What part of this don't you understand? When it falls to the floor (which was not the analogy I used) both the ball and the floor must absorb the impact. Got it?
And with that, I bow out. If we can't agree on this, there's nothing more to discuss.

Mackey was right, you can't fix stupid.
 
Yes, Almond, what you're doing is commendable, and exactly how people should comport themselves here. But it's a conspiracy addict on the other side. I've already put him on ignore; you won't miss a thing if you do the same. If he doesn't realize that the equation:

KE = 0.5mv2/2

... doesn't change just because something is in fragments, then he's clearly lost. Just give him an "F" and move on.

Stupid is only fixable by the one who's stupid. Until he realizes that, he's lost.
 

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