The Boy Scouts

[sgtbaker]

I am not sure if this would be considered a social issue or a religious issue so please move it if I picked the wrong place.

I got a letter from my children's school yesterday informing us that they have decided to allow special interest groups to recruit in the classroom and they will send letters home so the parent has the right to have their child "removed" from the classroom if they disagree with the interests of the group. They are not "supporting" the group, just allowing groups to take up class time and talk about how great they are. Of course the special interest group is The Boy Scouts. I am bothered this for two reasons.

It is common knowledge by now that The Boy Scouts, at least the last time I checked, still exclude atheist and agnostics because they can't fulfill their duty to god if they don't believe in one. I can't forsee the school allowing any other special interest group in the school that supports discrimination so openly so it has to be a matter of, "hey, their only atheists."

Second, and not even remotely less important, they are taking class time to allow special interest groups to promote their practice. While I thank you for the offer but I prefer not to make an example of my son by having him "removed" from the class for this event. How is it that they removed any recognition of Halloween because certain dominant faiths find it offensive, but they haven't removed the recognition of Christian holidays like Christmas, Valentine's Day, and Easter? Why can't Christians "remove" their kids from the class during Halloween celebrations?

I am tempted to have my son raise his hand and ask if they still discriminate against atheists and agnostics. Anyway, I am trying to write a letter of complaint but I suspect it's going to take me a while because I keep reverting to appeals. It's hard to be so matter of fact when you are trying to deal with an issue that evokes emotion.

 

[Skeptalk]

I never knew that the Boy Scouts didn't allow atheists or agnostics to join their organisation. You only have to do a quick Google search to see plenty of articles and links to videos of people complaining on this matter.

I definitely recommend writing a letter of complaint. I live in New Zealand so I've never really dealt with religion imposing on my life, but if I had a child who was in a similar situation, I'd do whatever I could to make myself heard. Good luck.

 

[Java Man]

Boy Scout Law

A Scout is:

Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.

The reverent part cost me 150 pushups, 150 situps and 150 abdominals when I refused to say grace once. My troop leader finally yielded and never asked me to say grace ever again. I didn't remain in Boy Scouts much longer though.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Scouting is for all girls, but only religous, heterosexual boys.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Scouting is for all girls, but only religous, heterosexual boys.

Used to be only religious, heterosexual white boys, so at least they're slowly progressing.

 

[RobRoy]

The reverent part cost me 150 pushups, 150 situps and 150 abdominals when I refused to say grace once. My troop leader finally yielded and never asked me to say grace ever again. I didn't remain in Boy Scouts much longer though.

This kind of thing isn’t allowed any more, and shouldn’t have been allowed then (I also suffered corporal punishment while I was a Boyscout, but that was for not being in full uniform at meetings).

Reverent doesn’t mean that you have to say grace, especially if your beliefs differ. I serve as an Assistant Scoutmaster to a church-based troop. It is common knowledge that I don’t believe as they do, and the Scoutmaster has made it clear that if someone doesn’t feel comfortable saying a prayer, they may defer.

Scouting was important for me as I grew up. I wasn’t aware of some of the major issues/problems that it had at the time. I am aware of them now, but I see that the organization does a lot of good for a lot of kids. The BSA has some major issues in regards to discrimination, and does need to overcome them. A change of policy is not only warranted, but required. Atheism, agnosticism and homosexuality are their three major hang-ups at this point, and it is my strong belief that, within time, these will a part of the BSA’s history, rather than their present policy.

 

[SumDood]

My son (now 8) wanted to join because they had some fund raiser where he could win an xbox 360. I went to the after school meeting and heard the speech and got the sign up form. It specifically says on there something about 'spiritual fulfillment' and having to believe in a higher power to join. I suppose that excludes Buddhists as well. I wonder how open they are to Muslims and pastafarians.

And equally discerning is their discrimination against homosexuals. Openly gay people cannot serve as scout leaders.

 

[sgtbaker]

My son (now 8) wanted to join because they had some fund raiser where he could win an xbox 360. I went to the after school meeting and heard the speech and got the sign up form. It specifically says on there something about 'spiritual fulfillment' and having to believe in a higher power to join. I suppose that excludes Buddhists as well. I wonder how open they are to Muslims and pastafarians.

And equally discerning is their discrimination against homosexuals. Openly gay people cannot serve as scout leaders.

No Buddhists are allowed, actually. They only exclude atheists and agnostics, now. I also stand corrected, I didn't mean to exclude homosexuality, I just didn't know about that.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Write a letter of complaint. And then be ready to file suit. You might want to get a lawyer's advice before writing the letter and mention that you have one ready to back you up.

 

[Cainkane1]

I am not sure if this would be considered a social issue or a religious issue so please move it if I picked the wrong place.

I got a letter from my children's school yesterday informing us that they have decided to allow special interest groups to recruit in the classroom and they will send letters home so the parent has the right to have their child "removed" from the classroom if they disagree with the interests of the group. They are not "supporting" the group, just allowing groups to take up class time and talk about how great they are. Of course the special interest group is The Boy Scouts. I am bothered this for two reasons.

It is common knowledge by now that The Boy Scouts, at least the last time I checked, still exclude atheist and agnostics because they can't fulfill their duty to god if they don't believe in one. I can't forsee the school allowing any other special interest group in the school that supports discrimination so openly so it has to be a matter of, "hey, their only atheists."

Second, and not even remotely less important, they are taking class time to allow special interest groups to promote their practice. While I thank you for the offer but I prefer not to make an example of my son by having him "removed" from the class for this event. How is it that they removed any recognition of Halloween because certain dominant faiths find it offensive, but they haven't removed the recognition of Christian holidays like Christmas, Valentine's Day, and Easter? Why can't Christians "remove" their kids from the class during Halloween celebrations?

I am tempted to have my son raise his hand and ask if they still discriminate against atheists and agnostics. Anyway, I am trying to write a letter of complaint but I suspect it's going to take me a while because I keep reverting to appeals. It's hard to be so matter of fact when you are trying to deal with an issue that evokes emotion.

I hate to sound like a coward but if your son raises his hand and asks that question every punk, bully and overall religious bigoted lunatic fanatic will target him. You already know the answer to the question so why have him ask?

The worlds full of injustices and its best to be away from the mob when you try to correct them.

 

[Cainkane1]

My son (now 8) wanted to join because they had some fund raiser where he could win an xbox 360. I went to the after school meeting and heard the speech and got the sign up form. It specifically says on there something about 'spiritual fulfillment' and having to believe in a higher power to join. I suppose that excludes Buddhists as well. I wonder how open they are to Muslims and pastafarians.

And equally discerning is their discrimination against homosexuals. Openly gay people cannot serve as scout leaders.

The boy scouts have merit badges for their Buddist members.

 

[RobRoy]

My son (now 8) wanted to join because they had some fund raiser where he could win an xbox 360. I went to the after school meeting and heard the speech and got the sign up form. It specifically says on there something about 'spiritual fulfillment' and having to believe in a higher power to join.

This goes all the way back to Lord Baden Powell who makes a statement along the lines that an individual isn’t worth very much if he/she doesn’t believe in God and doesn’t obey God’s rules. He didn't state which God, so that leaves a lot of room to drive several trucks through the BSA argument, but there it is.

I suppose that excludes Buddhists as well. I wonder how open they are to Muslims and pastafarians.

No, actually, Buddhists and Muslims are not excluded. Members of either religious group can seek and receive their religious emblem award.

No news on pastafarians yet. BSA regulations state that a religious group must sponsor/charter 25 units before their application of a religious award will be accepted.

And equally discerning is their discrimination against homosexuals. Openly gay people cannot serve as scout leaders.

And are dismissed if they are found out. This is one of the most idiotic things the BSA has done as a knee-jerk reaction to reports of child-molestation. Equating gay to pedophile irks me no end.

 

[paiute]

Be prepared! That's the Boy Scout's marching song,
Be prepared! As through life you march along.
Be prepared to hold your liquor pretty well,
Don't write naughty words on walls if you can't spell.

Be prepared! To hide that pack of cigarettes,
Don't make book if you cannot cover bets.
Keep those reefers hidden where you're sure
That they will not be found
And be careful not to smoke them
When the scoutmaster's around
For he only will insist that it be shared.
Be prepared!

Be prepared! That's the Boy Scouts' solemn creed,
Be prepared! And be clean in word and deed.
Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice,
Unless you get a good percentage of her price.

Be prepared! And be careful not to do
Your good deeds when there's no one watching you.
If you're looking for adventure of a
new and different kind,
And you come across a Girl Scout who is
similarly inclined,
Don't be nervous, don't be flustered, don't be scared.
Be prepared!

Tom Lehrer, "Be Prepared"

 

[Uncle Otto]

For those in other countries than the U.S., the discriminatory policies were in place a long time ago, but were not routinely or evenly enforced. But now the national governing council is largely run by Mormons from what I understand, hence all the problems with them in recent years. And unfortunately, our Supreme Court several years ago ruled that it is OK for them to discriminate, as they are a private organization. The trouble starts when they avail them selves of a lot of privileges at public expense. Recruiting in a public school being one. There is some hope though, as they have lost some court cases involving such public access to other facilities.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

No, actually, Buddhists and Muslims are not excluded. Members of either religious group can seek and receive their religious emblem award.

Aren't Buddhists atheists? I mean it's a religion without a god, isn't it?

 

[RobRoy]

For those in other countries than the U.S., the discriminatory policies were in place a long time ago, but were not routinely or evenly enforced.

Scouting in other countries are generally less discriminatory than the BSA. For example, Scounting in the UK states:

To enable young people to grow into independent adults the Scout Method encourages young people to question what they have been taught. Scouts and Venture Scouts who question God's existence, their own spirituality or the structures and beliefs of any or all religions are simply searching for spiritual understanding. This notion of a search for enlightenment is compatible with belief in most of the world's faiths. It is unacceptable to refuse Membership, or question a young person's suitability to continue to participate fully in a Section, if they express doubts about the meaning of the Promise.​

A much more reasonable approach than discriminating.

But now the national governing council is largely run by Mormons from what I understand, hence all the problems with them in recent years.

This wouldn’t surprise me, but I’d have to see the proof.

Aren't Buddhists atheists? I mean it's a religion without a god, isn't it?

I can’t speak for either Buddhists or the BSA on why there is a Buddhist religious award. I can only state that there is.

 

[Meadmaker]

Like the rest of society, the Boy Scouts have changed a great deal over the years. I got involved in scouting when my son wanted to join a couple of years ago. Religion has never been an issue. Yes, I am sure that there are still scoutmasters in the world who would make a stink about a kid if they found out he was an atheist, but I think you would have to work hard to actually find one. I tell my kid that being "reverent" means being respectful toward everyone's religious beliefs. If you can't manage that, in my opinion, you shouldn't be a boy scout or a scoutmaster.

As for sexuality, I'm pretty sure it's a "Don't ask. Don't tell." sort of policy. It's a relic of some bygone attitudes, I think. In the past, it wasn't unusual for kids to run around without clothes on at camps, and there was an idea of homosexuals getting worked into a frenzy in that situation. Now, there are usually enough mothers present in the campground that the kids will be keeping their clothes on all the time, anyway. More importantly, more people realize that it just isn't a really big problem. Gay people don't seem to react that way to the presence of naked members of the same sex. The regulations that are in place to protect kids against heterosexual pedophiles are more than enough to protect them from homosexual pedophiles as well. Most boy scout leadership is based on people who either currently have kids in scouts, or have had them in scouts in the past. In the past, that meant not many gay people participated. My guess is that as more gay people start traising children, and those children want to be boy scouts, those barriers will drop, but it will take some time.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath, here. The Boy Scouts are an excellent, but not perfect, organization. In my experience, there is no barrier to participation based on either religion or sexual orientation, regardless of what the official rules say. (Granted, I haven't paid much attention to the sexual orientation difficulties, which I suspect are a bigger problem.) I suppose it's good to keep raising the issues, to keep pressure on that will eventually goad them into changes, but that takes time. In the meantime, there's no reason to keep your kid out of them based on those reasons, and there's no reason to try to force other kids out of the Scouts, either.

 

[Meadmaker]

Aren't Buddhists atheists? I mean it's a religion without a god, isn't it?

Strong agnostics. The official teaching of the Buddha on the subject is that it is absolutely impossible for a human being to even comprehend the answer to a question of whether or not God exists.

The Boy Scouts don't seem to mind this, and there is a religious achievement award for Buddhists, and Buddhist organizations can and do sponsor scout troops.

 

[sgtbaker]

I hate to sound like a coward but if your son raises his hand and asks that question every punk, bully and overall religious bigoted lunatic fanatic will target him. You already know the answer to the question so why have him ask?

The worlds full of injustices and its best to be away from the mob when you try to correct them.

That's why I said tempted. If he, on his own, decided to raise his hand and ask that, I can't say there would be no pleasure in it but I wouldn't put him to the task.

 

[RobRoy]

Like the rest of society, the Boy Scouts have changed a great deal over the years. I got involved in scouting when my son wanted to join a couple of years ago. Religion has never been an issue. Yes, I am sure that there are still scoutmasters in the world who would make a stink about a kid if they found out he was an atheist, but I think you would have to work hard to actually find one. I tell my kid that being "reverent" means being respectful toward everyone's religious beliefs. If you can't manage that, in my opinion, you shouldn't be a boy scout or a scoutmaster.

As for sexuality, I'm pretty sure it's a "Don't ask. Don't tell." sort of policy. It's a relic of some bygone attitudes, I think. In the past, it wasn't unusual for kids to run around without clothes on at camps, and there was an idea of homosexuals getting worked into a frenzy in that situation. Now, there are usually enough mothers present in the campground that the kids will be keeping their clothes on all the time, anyway. More importantly, more people realize that it just isn't a really big problem. Gay people don't seem to react that way to the presence of naked members of the same sex. The regulations that are in place to protect kids against heterosexual pedophiles are more than enough to protect them from homosexual pedophiles as well. Most boy scout leadership is based on people who either currently have kids in scouts, or have had them in scouts in the past. In the past, that meant not many gay people participated. My guess is that as more gay people start traising children, and those children want to be boy scouts, those barriers will drop, but it will take some time.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath, here. The Boy Scouts are an excellent, but not perfect, organization. In my experience, there is no barrier to participation based on either religion or sexual orientation, regardless of what the official rules say. (Granted, I haven't paid much attention to the sexual orientation difficulties, which I suspect are a bigger problem.) I suppose it's good to keep raising the issues, to keep pressure on that will eventually goad them into changes, but that takes time. In the meantime, there's no reason to keep your kid out of them based on those reasons, and there's no reason to try to force other kids out of the Scouts, either.

Yes.

This is how I view the organization and why I continue to participate in it. My time as a Boy Scout was very much influenced by the organization, and definitely in a good way. I regret not getting my Eagle award, and I'd like to help other boys not have that regret. But even without being and Eagle Scout, I have a number of excellent skills, both within the realm of camping and in other areas, that were a direct result of my participation.

Scouting isn't for everyone, but it's a good, if flawed, organization, that has increasingly gotten better with time.