Merged Obama enters GZ Mosque debate

[MattusMaximus]

Some interesting news to flesh things out in a bit more detail, for those who care...

FACT CHECK: Islam already part of WTC neighborhood

A New York imam and his proposed mosque near ground zero are being demonized by political candidates — mostly Republicans — despite the fact that Islam is already very much a part of the World Trade Center neighborhood. And that Muslims pray inside the Pentagon, too, less than 80 feet from where terrorists attacked. ...

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

typical GOP lies.

I'm much more annoyed that when they do that, no one corrects them--not the moderator or even the opposing panelists on Face the Nation.

 

[Thunder]

mosque INSIDE the Pentagon?

oh, we gotta get rid of that. its offensive.

 

[MattusMaximus]

In other developments, I received this notification from Americans United for the Separation of Church & State just today...

Use of Government Property to Relocate NYC Mosque Raises Serious Legal Questions, Says Americans United

New York Gov. David Paterson’s proposal to offer public property to relocate the so-called “Ground Zero mosque” raises serious constitutional issues and could spark litigation, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

“I understand that some people are not happy with the prospect of an Islamic center opening in Manhattan, but relocating it to public property raises significant legal issues,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. “Whether the governor is talking about a gift of public land or a sweetheart deal that gives one religious group a special right to purchase government property, it’s wrong.

“In America,” continued Lynn, “government does not subsidize religion or give religious groups preferential treatment.”

Controversy has flared recently over plans by a Muslim group to build an Islamic center two blocks from the site of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Paterson proposed resolving the matter by offering public land elsewhere for construction of the Islamic facility.

I wonder what all the fundamentalist Christians who constantly scream about there being "no separation of church & state in the Constitution" will say about AU's stance on this?

 

[Thunder]

"I am against the mosque, because the 9-11 hijackers were all Muslim"

"but I am not bigoted against Muslims or Islam"

sorry guys, but if you associate all Muslims with the Muslims hijackers of 9-11, than you ARE being bigoted.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Some interesting news to flesh things out in a bit more detail, for those who care...

FACT CHECK: Islam already part of WTC neighborhood

Nice. ANTPogo has been providing similar info. (There's been a muslim congregation just 4 blocks from the what is now Ground Zero for a long time.)

Apparently Newt Gingrich thinks we should emulate Saudi Arabia!

There should be no mosque near ground zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia.

It sounds like Newt thinks we should do away with the First Amendment guarantee of freedom of religion and be just like Saudi Arabia!

 

[MattusMaximus]

Apparently Newt Gingrich thinks we should emulate Saudi Arabia!

JTJ, could you provide a link for this?

 

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Newt
There should be no mosque near ground zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia.

its good to know Newt's commitment to freedom and tolerance are strong as ever.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

As I suspected, it seems that the "oppose" result can be interpreted a couple of ways:

1. One could agree with the constitutional right of the Muslims to build the mosque, but oppose the plan.
2. One could disagree with the constitutional right of Muslims to build the mosque in the first place.

The "favor" option is drastically oversimplified as well.. Why do I need to be "in favor" of a mosque if I'm not actively opposed to it? Can't I "not give a damn" while rightly believing that most of the active opposition is direct or indirect bigotry?

It's like asking "Are you in favor of these two gay men having sex right now on this couch or are you opposed to it?".. Why can't it be none of our business in the first place? Word a poll like that and it will make a large segment of the population look anti-gay.. But it'd be a bad poll as it insinuates that anyone not banging on their door yelling at them to stop having sex is obviously a big fan of gay sex.

 

[thaiboxerken]

The "favor" option is drastically oversimplified as well..

I think when many rational people ask if people are in "favor" of it, they're really asking if people are in favor of their right. I, myself, could care less if they build it or not. However, for them to be denied the right is very much un-American.

 

[thaiboxerken]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/18/AR2010081806913.html

20% of Americans think Obama is a Muslim......

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

I think when many rational people ask if people are in "favor" of it, they're really asking if people are in favor of their right. I, myself, could care less if they build it or not. However, for them to be denied the right is very much un-American.

That would make sense if their right to do so were actually in question.. I think that poll question was badly worded for the reasons we've both mentioned.

While I admit that 29% said they thought they shouldn't have the right to build the mosque, as you just pointed out 20% think Obama is a Muslim also.. the actual debate going on isn't about rights it's about whether Islam is so similar to Al Qaeda in the minds of the public that no mosques at all should be built nearby.

 

[JohnnyG]

mosque INSIDE the Pentagon?

oh, we gotta get rid of that. its offensive.

There is no Mosque in the Pentagon.
http://factcheck.org/2010/08/no-pentagon-mosque/

 

[thaiboxerken]

the actual debate going on isn't about rights it's about whether Islam is so similar to Al Qaeda in the minds of the public that no mosques at all should be built nearby.

Which means it's about bigotry.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

Which means it's about bigotry.

Well yeah, 70%+ of JREF has figured that out according to the poll thread in Social Issues and Current Events. We've got some clever people though who avoid clearly copping to intolerance by instead accusing unspecified New Yorkers of bigotry then asking us to let those other people off the hook for it because they're emotional or don't know any better.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

Ok I now concede due to another thread that "unprincipled cowardice" (as Cecil put it) is a valid alternative to bigotry as an explanation.. Kind of a frying pan / fire conundrum though for them if they can't do any better than that.

 

[Ladewig]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/18/AR2010081806913.html

20% of Americans think Obama is a Muslim......

I'm betting that the number is going to go up from here. Any takers?

From the article

Among those who say Obama is a Muslim, 60 percent say they learned about his religion from the media, suggesting that their opinions are fueled by misinformation.

I suspect that the majority learned this "fact" from chain letter e-mails.

 

[Ladewig]

Which means it's about bigotry.

The motivations of those opposed to the Mosque may be less clear than might be expected. From the previous cited Washington Post article:

But the survey also indicates that the public's opposition to the center may be more complicated than just anti-Muslim sentiment. Fifty-five percent said they would accept a Muslim community center and place of worship two blocks from their own home.

Most bigots never want "those people" in their neighborhood. Perhaps it is more of an irrational love of Ground Zero than an irrational hatred of Muslims.

On the other hand, it could be both. From the same story

A new Time-SRBI poll found that 25 percent say most Muslims in the United States are not patriotic Americans.

As Mark Twain once said, "There are times when one would like to hang the whole human race, and finish the farce."

 

[leftysergeant]

I suspect that the majority learned this "fact" from chain letter e-mails.

I'm sure a lot of them got it from rightwhacker radio.

 

[Kestrel]

I'm sure a lot of them got it from rightwhacker radio.

The swamp pit known as AM talk radio does technically count as media.