Merged Two Mosques to be built near Ground Zero

Really. Oh well then, that explains everything and all this is just silliness about a 13 story building. Thanks for clearing that up.

Time for me to retire. Goodnight.

It reallly is just about a 13 story building becoming a community center. A small "mosque" may be built there, but it's more likely to be just a prayer room. Contrary to what Fox News is painting, there won't be Minarettes all overshadowing ground zero, not that I would oppose that either.

Fact 1. The center isn't at ground zero.
Fact 2. It's not going to be a terrorist training camp.
Fact 3. All those opposed to building the place are bigots or pandering to bigots.
 
A small "mosque" may be built there, but it's more likely to be just a prayer room.

Nope. Can't be a mosque when it has all that other stuff. The prayer area will be a mosque like the little chaplain area in St. Jude's makes it a cathedral.

This is a key part of how ignorance and demagoguery have completely twisted the conversation. I'm not accusing you of this, but instead I'm saying that this is the foundation on which the "mosque" lie has perpetuated itself.
 
First, we don't know who is "paying for" it, and whether you like it or not two thirds of all New Yorkers who don't like it are not extremist bigots.

Ok, and IF your funding theory pans out then the tiny minority of the people protesting this mosque for reasons of funding alone might turn out not to have been bigots. Good for them, but the majority of the opposition so far has made NO such valid-yet-unsubstantiated excuse. Most of the public opposition has been for stated reasons that I don't think any good excuse will ever be found for.
 
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on 9-11, there will be a large protest against the mosque, led by the "Stop the Islamization of America" campaign.

i wonder if the funding issue is their real concern.

:confused:
 
on 9-11, there will be a large protest against the mosque, led by the "Stop the Islamization of America" campaign.

i wonder if the funding issue is their real concern.

:confused:

Yeah really.. The maybe-not-bigot people that Elind is defending are nowhere to be seen in this "controversy". Maybe Elind is one of these mythological unbigoted opponents, so that's 1 and counting..
 
Seems to me that every nation has it's majority religion and thats mostly what they go with as the norm, i see that having a pretty much direct affect on how the people act, i don't care for religion at all but if i had to choose i will go with what we got here right now and try to suppress any more new ones from sprouting up, but thats just me looking at what history has shown us.
 
Wow, Elind. Are you a descendant of McCarthy? You seem to invoke the same, paranoid arguments of those witch hunts.


I'm probably slower than others in realizing this, but... Islam really is becoming the new Communism.
 
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Ok, and IF your funding theory pans out then the tiny minority of the people protesting this mosque for reasons of funding alone might turn out not to have been bigots.

So what exactly is the concern about the funding? Is it simply against the law for particular foreign groups or foreign countries to fund or partially fund the construction of a house of worship in the United States? And I would hazard a guess that such particular groups would include those listed as terrorist groups on the State Department's list. If that (or something close to it) is the case, I can understand why that funding should be blocked.

Or is the concern that the funding from a totalitarian group or government will:
1.) come with strings
2.) by which the totalitarian contributors will demand that their kind of imam take the pulpit
3.) on a regular or permanent basis,
4.) and that this future preacher will promote an anti-American message
5.) and incite violence, sedition, and terrorist tactics,
6.) but these comments will not noticed by New York law enforcement or the FBI,
7.) or challenged by anti-terrorist Muslims who attend the mosque,
8.) and these incitements will then be acted upon,
9.) leading to new terrorist attacks in the U.S. and the harming of Americans,
10.) deaths and injuries that could have been prevented if the Cordoba House had not been built.

This sort of thing must have happened before, in either the U.S. or Britain. An example of an earlier chain of events would help me accept the claim.

If I have all this right, I next have to ask how much funding (in absolute dollar amounts or as a percentage of the entire project) is necessary to buy this kind of control? And knowing that the current imam is not one of their own, how would the Islamic supremacists guarantee that he wouldn't just take the money and give them the brush-off? Are the anti-mosque folks worried that Imam Rauf, or his family, might be intimidated by terrorists who want to enforce a quid-pro-quo, so the protesters are actually trying to protect they imam from such an eventuality?

Meanwhile, in the case of the Saudis' usual propaganda efforts, I have to ask this question: Why would the Wahhabist government in Saudi Arabia support a community center in New York headed by an American Sufi? Aren't these two sects very much at odds? Wouldn't that be like R.J. Rushdoony or Howard F. Ahmanson Jr., sending a few thousand bucks to a Unitarian-Universalist church in France?

I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck. These are genuine questions. I'm trying to wrap my head around the opponents' concerns, as well as gauge the weight of their reality and likelihood.
 
Transparency of funds is something all non-profits have to comply with. For some reason, the gov't doesn't enforce such transparencies with religious institutions. Perhaps Elind feels we should start auditting all religious institutions.
 
I really don't know what problem they might have with the funding, all I'm seeing here is speculation by Elind.. My point was that even if they did unearth some troubling evidence about the funding it would only excuse the beliefs of a very tiny portion of the anti-mosque movement. The rest would still come out looking like bigots or defenders of (real or imagined) bigotry.
 
That percentage may (appear to) increase if and when the funding question becomes an official talking point. They can use it as cover. It might even work, despite it sounding suspiciously like "we're just asking questions".
 
That percentage may (appear to) increase if and when the funding question becomes an official talking point. They can use it as cover. It might even work, despite it sounding suspiciously like "we're just asking questions".

I agree. It's what bigots do. They find reasons instead of basing their opinoins on reasons.
 
Why on earth would foreigners wish to fund a cultural/religious center in the USA, when American aren't?

Seems obvious to me. The USA funds schools in foreign countries for students of Americans working overseas so they can get a standardized USA education. Other countries do the same here. For example, Saudi Arabia funds a large school in Virginia.

I have no doubt that Rauf is no Al Qaeda mole, but I have reservations about his inability to categories Hamas and Hizbullah as the terrorist organizations our state department calls them.

If this is the concern, it seems you should support this effort. Just have the CIA infiltrate the construction crews and plant some bugs. What better way to get the inside skinny rather than them meeting at unknown places.

I'm mostly kidding on that one.

As I said earlier, I would love to see something done by American Muslims for Muslims. I want the Saudis and other governments who, whether by proxies or not, build "churches" in other countries, to stay at home.

You are then opposed to all USA foreign aid based on exactly the same reasoning?
 
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Oh dear.

...

When was the last time you heard of the US government financing religious institution construction overseas? You would be outraged wouldn't you? But you have no problem if other governments, possibly theocracies, do so here.
Oh, dear, indeed. The US spends billions on religious projects overseas. Yes, billions.

Here is a place to start:

The Globe discovered that the share of US foreign aid dollars for aid organizations that was going religious groups had doubled, from 10 percent to nearly 20 percent, totaling more than $1.7 billion

You've heard of World Vision, right? A bunch of religious fundies operating around the world. Here's a note about their funding:

World Vision, based outside of Seattle, is one of the largest recipients of development grants from the U.S. Agency for International Development, the federal government’s foreign aid arm. The organization received $281 million in U.S. grants in 2008, up from $220 million in 2007 and $261 million in 2006, according to World Vision documents.

That's hundreds of millions to just one group.

You're outraged now, right?
 
That's hundreds of millions to just one group.

You're outraged now, right?

Actually I am mildly outraged by it, since unlike Rush I hold America to higher standards than I hold Saudi Arabia.. If we are federally spending all that money promoting a specific religion that is actually kind of bad.
 
I don't care where it gets built, but this community center/mosque needs to be built near GZ.

What will it say to the world? It will say that we are BETTER than the terrorists and extremists who hate us.

What will it say if we do NOT build this thing? That we coddle and appease the extremists and bigots amoung our own society. And it will confirm what the terrorists say about the USA, that we are at war with Islam.


It will say that, because people have been tortured and murdered in the name of the USA, all of the USA's military cultural and military outposts should be closed because they are causing pain to victims of the USA.
 
The election two years from now? I'd like to think they'll be able to manufacture outrage over something else by then - or, better yet, have actual positions to run on instead of fanning the flames of their base's hate.

The congressional elections are at the end of this year are they not?
 
I doubt this will go ahead. Obama finds himself isolated from the rest of the Democratic Party who are two thirds against the whole idea. In line with the general population.

Islam has won a battle by the posts I have so far seen.
 

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