Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Danceme]

It is not possible to put a fixed time frame of 2 to 3 hours on gastric emptying. I have yet to find a study indicating 2 to 3 hours as any sort of a reliable estimate. In fact almost all studies I've come across indicate a time frame greater than that, including this one, determined through the use of ultrasound to be 248 +/- 39 minutes in normal people, which is roughly 3.5 to 4.75 hours.

Abstract
Measurement of gastric emptying time by real-time ultrasonography.
This paper describes an ultrasound method of assessing gastric emptying time based on measurements of the gastric antrum, which is visible in almost all subjects before and after meals. A total of 54 subjects were examined including 18 normal subjects and 36 subjects with idiopathic functional dyspepsia. The emptying time was determined in all subjects by measuring the changes in the cross-sectional area of the gastric antrum. In a subgroup of 34 subjects the volume of the whole antropyloric region was also considered. Measurements were taken by the same observer after fasting and at regular 30-min intervals after a standard 800-cal meal. Final emptying time (calculated in relation to the start of the meal) was considered to be the time at which the antral area or volume returned to basal value. Final emptying time (mean +/- SD) was 248 +/- 39 min in normal subjects and 359 +/- 64 min in patients with functional dyspepsia (p less than 0.001). A significantly higher degree of dilatation of the gastric antrum was found in dyspeptic patients than in control subjects. Barium x-ray of the stomach in 19 subjects always confirmed the ultrasound finding on the presence or absence of contents within the stomach. We conclude that this kind of ultrasound study of the antropyloric region allows accurate determination of total gastric emptying time.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3896910

 

[Justinian2]

Can anyone give a map of the area between Amanda's house, Sollecito's house, where the cell phones were found and how long it takes to walk the distance between them?

 

[Danceme]

Here's another study which was performed by gastroenterologists using transnasal scopes, results show complete gastric emptying can take as long as 6 hours in young healthy individuals.

http://tinyurl.com/2am3k76

I think research shows the 2 to 3 hour time frame, being carved in stone by some posters here, is completely false.

 

[christianahannah]

I must be missing something. Until roughly 8:30 in the evening, Amanda thought that she would be working, and she may have initially intended to go to her flat after work, and perhaps clean up. Why would she have taken stuff to Raffaele's under those circumstances?

Chris,

I think there were many nights Amanda worked late (2 a.m. or so). Since she and Raffaele were leaving early morning to go to Gubbio it would be practical for Amanda to already have her clothes at Raffaele's where she could go straight after work rather than to her flat and then back to Raffaele's.

Amanda had already left her flat with Raffaele early afternoon and spent the rest of the time with him until she had to leave for work at approximately 20:15 or so. Was she on her way to her flat before work to pick up clothes (and before she received the SMS from Patrick)? Did she contemplate stopping by her flat to pick up clothes after being told by Patrick she had off the night?

I would also want to know Amanda's recent pattern of work and staying overnight with Raffaele other times - did she go to his flat directly after work or did she go to her place first?

The jury may have heard testimony as to a pattern of Amanda's overnight visits with Raffaele. I do not know if this is so, however, I admit there is much I do not know about the courtroom proceedings and what was testified to.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Actually the police for several month thought Amanda's sweatshirt she was wearing the day of the murder was missing, as noticed by one of her italian roommates. This was a big thing of course. Then finally it was found in her room at the sealed cottage, month after the murder …

It was in plain sight, on top of her bed. As far as I know, it was never subjected to any forensic tests. I don't think Massei mentions it in his report either.

Perhaps the working premise is that Amanda wore a Tyvek suit, which she carried around in her large bag along with Raffaele's kitchen knife.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Actually the police for several month thought Amanda's sweatshirt she was wearing the day of the murder was missing, as noticed by one of her italian roommates. This was a big thing of course. Then finally it was found in her room at the sealed cottage, month after the murder …

How in the world, would anyone other than RS - Rudie and Amanda herself know what shirt she was wearing when she murdered Meredith? And surely were not taking their word on this, are we?

 

[Justinian2]

[...] but they are still guilty (to lesser degrees - I think AK was there but did not participate, I think RS only helped hold Meredith down, I think RG did the stabbing and sexual assult).

What is the evidence that makes you think that:

1) AK was there but did not participate
2) I think RS only helped hold Meredith down

Code of Hammurabi

3. If a man has borne false witness in a trial, or has not established the statement that he has made, if that case be a capital trial, that man shall be put to death.

4. If he has borne false witness in a civil law case, he shall pay the damages in that suit.

It seems like eschewing false theories about the defendants also qualifies as a violation of the code of hammurabi. Good thing, for the prosecution, that these are 'modern times'.

 

[Mary_H]

I must be missing something. Until roughly 8:30 in the evening, Amanda thought that she would be working, and she may have initially intended to go to her flat after work, and perhaps clean up. Why would she have taken stuff to Raffaele's under those circumstances?

Chris C: Actually Knox was suppose to go to work, so bringing clothes to work with her for a trip the next day doesn't make sense. At some point she would have had to return home. She chose to return home the next day before the trip.

You guys are right.

 

[Mary_H]

Of the hundreds of Americans that are arrested in other countries each year how many have been freed due to international pressure?

I don't know the answer to that question, and it is irrelevant to this discussion. The fact that the practice of freeing Americans in foreign prisons is uncommon does not prevent it from happening in Amanda's case.

The UN has not condemned these convictions as a violation of human rights. Neither has Amnesty Internation or any other human rights NGO. The State Department won't get involved and Amanda's family should be glad they won't. The absolutely best they could hope for would be an extradition which would put her in a much worse (federal) prison than where she already is.

Again, irrelevant. The fact that the UN, Amnesty International and the State Department have not gotten involved up to this point is not an indication that they will not get involved in the future.

The only time I can recall this happening is apartheid in South Africa and that took longer to dismantle than Amanda's entire sentence.

International pressure commonly influences the course of events in nations and the world. Go to Google and enter "international pressure changed history" or try this link for a timeline:

http://www.google.com/search?q=inte...00&ei=KoBsTOLYLY2isQOGqvHWBw&ved=0CIwBEMsBKAQ

Has there ever been a case where international pressure led to the overturning of a conviction in a murder case?

I don't know the answer to that question. Again, it does not predict what might happen in Amanda's case.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Does anyone really believe that the thefts and break-ins for which Guede was caught red-handed (which includes being in possession of the laptop and phone stolen from the Perugian lawyer's office) were the only ones he committed?

Of course they weren't - it's quite obvious that for him to get busted several times in a single month he must have been profligate, however inept he might have been.

Guede had no income, had rent and bills to pay, booze and drugs to buy. There can be little doubt that by late 2007 he was an habitual thief - probably stealing things (bags and 'phones etc') in public places and committing other burglaries he hasn't been linked to.

I can't imagine why more effort wasn't made by the Italian cops to connect him to other reported break-ins and thefts committed in the weeks and months before he killed Meredith.

The stock PMF/guilter position is to refuse to speculate about any crimes Rudy might have committed and not been caught for, and to repeat the question "What was Rudy convicted for?" to emphasise the point that despite being repeatedly caught red-handed the police always turned him straight back out on the streets.

However it's not exactly unreasonable to assume that Rudy, having no visible means of support, was supporting himself by housebreaking, nor to assume that he committed many crimes which we don't yet know about.

The accusation has been made, but never substantiated, that Rudy was a police informer who enjoyed effective immunity from prosecution in exchange for informing on other criminals. It would not look at all good for the police if they had turned Rudy loose after catching him housebreaking with a knife, and then less than a week later Rudy had broken into a house and murdered an attractive foreign student with a knife.

This accusation would also explain how the police never seem to have thought to look for a local criminal with a matching M.O. and dark, curly hair after finding the crime scene, but instead immediately latched on to the nearest available suspects and an entirely unrelated man (Lumumba) with matching hair. They only started treating Rudy as a suspect after he was picked up by foreign police.

I suspect we'll never know the truth unless the appeal court has the courage to condemn the Massei judgment, and some kind of formal inquiry into the affair ensues. It hangs together, but that doesn't mean it's true.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

So the question will not be answered until appeal.

Dr. Lalli found content in the small intestine's final loop, as did Prof. Umani Ronchi.

What do you think this proves?

Time of death based on stomach content is inherently unreliable. All experts agree on that.

No. There is no such thing as "inherently unreliable", there are only degrees of possible error.

It is not possible to put a fixed time frame of 2 to 3 hours on gastric emptying. I have yet to find a study indicating 2 to 3 hours as any sort of a reliable estimate. In fact almost all studies I've come across indicate a time frame greater than that, including this one, determined through the use of ultrasound to be 248 +/- 39 minutes in normal people, which is roughly 3.5 to 4.75 hours.

Abstract
Measurement of gastric emptying time by real-time ultrasonography.
This paper describes an ultrasound method of assessing gastric emptying time based on measurements of the gastric antrum, which is visible in almost all subjects before and after meals. A total of 54 subjects were examined including 18 normal subjects and 36 subjects with idiopathic functional dyspepsia. The emptying time was determined in all subjects by measuring the changes in the cross-sectional area of the gastric antrum. In a subgroup of 34 subjects the volume of the whole antropyloric region was also considered. Measurements were taken by the same observer after fasting and at regular 30-min intervals after a standard 800-cal meal. Final emptying time (calculated in relation to the start of the meal) was considered to be the time at which the antral area or volume returned to basal value. Final emptying time (mean +/- SD) was 248 +/- 39 min in normal subjects and 359 +/- 64 min in patients with functional dyspepsia (p less than 0.001). A significantly higher degree of dilatation of the gastric antrum was found in dyspeptic patients than in control subjects. Barium x-ray of the stomach in 19 subjects always confirmed the ultrasound finding on the presence or absence of contents within the stomach. We conclude that this kind of ultrasound study of the antropyloric region allows accurate determination of total gastric emptying time.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3896910

Why are you focusing on time until final emptying?

Here's another study which was performed by gastroenterologists using transnasal scopes, results show complete gastric emptying can take as long as 6 hours in young healthy individuals.

http://tinyurl.com/2am3k76

I think research shows the 2 to 3 hour time frame, being carved in stone by some posters here, is completely false.

Why are you focusing on time until final emptying?

 

[Mary_H]

Laws are not subject to public opinion. As far as I can tell, no laws were broken in the course of this prosecution and convictions.

Has there ever been a case where "grassroot activism" has helped an American convicted of murder in a foreign country? I've mentioned Lori Berenson before, she's headed back to prison.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/19/world/americas/19berenson.html?_r=1&hp

The Italian state was required to compensate Patrick for false arrest by the Perugian police. When Amanda and Raffaele are exonerated, their lawyers may decide sue the Perugian police and prosecutors for any number of violations, including false arrest, denial of rights to counsel, physical abuse and defamation. It remains to be seen.

 

[Dan O.]

Here's another study which was performed by gastroenterologists using transnasal scopes, results show complete gastric emptying can take as long as 6 hours in young healthy individuals.

http://tinyurl.com/2am3k76

I think research shows the 2 to 3 hour time frame, being carved in stone by some posters here, is completely false.

Danceme, Most runners in a marathon complete the corse in about 6 hours. So how is is possible year after year that the winner finishes in 2 to 3 hours? When you figure that out, maybe you will be able to realize what the rest of us are talking about.


For everyone else, the link that Danceme provided above does necessitate rethinking the timeline because one of the measures they made was the time of half emptying. Though phase II was a small study of only 10 participants, the T1/2 times ranged from 24 to 137 minutes.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Here's another study which was performed by gastroenterologists using transnasal scopes, results show complete gastric emptying can take as long as 6 hours in young healthy individuals.

http://tinyurl.com/2am3k76

I think research shows the 2 to 3 hour time frame, being carved in stone by some posters here, is completely false.

I think you should discuss this with a forensic pathologist.

 

[Chris C]

Look this Coroner has a medical degree. If you refuse to accept his 2 to 3 hours after eating as ToD. Then you must refuse to accept everything else he testified about. Including the ToD using body temperature. I think he also testified about the bruises and the knife wounds. If you throw out 2 to 3 hours as ToD, you must throw out everything.
The coroner isn't a stupid person. It doesn't matter where at the food remains are in the intestines. All you have to do is analyze them and you know what part of the intestines they where in at ToD. Different parts of the small intestines break down and absorb different things.

 

[Chris C]

Does anyone really believe that the thefts and break-ins for which Guede was caught red-handed (which includes being in possession of the laptop and phone stolen from the Perugian lawyer's office) were the only ones he committed?

Of course they weren't - it's quite obvious that for him to get busted several times in a single month he must have been profligate, however inept he might have been.

Guede had no income, had rent and bills to pay, booze and drugs to buy. There can be little doubt that by late 2007 he was an habitual thief - probably stealing things (bags and 'phones etc') in public places and committing other burglaries he hasn't been linked to.

I can't imagine why more effort wasn't made by the Italian cops to connect him to other reported break-ins and thefts committed in the weeks and months before he killed Meredith.

Remember Guede was caught with a stolen phone and a stolen computer from a break in that someone climbed up window bars in through a 2nd story window. I find it rather convenient that there was also 2 stolen phones from Meredith, window bars on a downstairs window, broken window above the window bars and people want to ignore these facts and call it a false break in. Except things where stolen, money and phones.

 

[LondonJohn]

It is not possible to put a fixed time frame of 2 to 3 hours on gastric emptying. I have yet to find a study indicating 2 to 3 hours as any sort of a reliable estimate. In fact almost all studies I've come across indicate a time frame greater than that, including this one, determined through the use of ultrasound to be 248 +/- 39 minutes in normal people, which is roughly 3.5 to 4.75 hours.

Abstract
Measurement of gastric emptying time by real-time ultrasonography.
This paper describes an ultrasound method of assessing gastric emptying time based on measurements of the gastric antrum, which is visible in almost all subjects before and after meals. A total of 54 subjects were examined including 18 normal subjects and 36 subjects with idiopathic functional dyspepsia. The emptying time was determined in all subjects by measuring the changes in the cross-sectional area of the gastric antrum. In a subgroup of 34 subjects the volume of the whole antropyloric region was also considered. Measurements were taken by the same observer after fasting and at regular 30-min intervals after a standard 800-cal meal. Final emptying time (calculated in relation to the start of the meal) was considered to be the time at which the antral area or volume returned to basal value. Final emptying time (mean +/- SD) was 248 +/- 39 min in normal subjects and 359 +/- 64 min in patients with functional dyspepsia (p less than 0.001). A significantly higher degree of dilatation of the gastric antrum was found in dyspeptic patients than in control subjects. Barium x-ray of the stomach in 19 subjects always confirmed the ultrasound finding on the presence or absence of contents within the stomach. We conclude that this kind of ultrasound study of the antropyloric region allows accurate determination of total gastric emptying time.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3896910

Have you not spotted the huge flaw in your argument? The clue is in the words "final emptying time". The times that are being quoted here are the times for all stomach contents to pass through to the duodenum and beyond. Meredith had 500ml of contents in her stomach (consistent with the small/moderate meal of pizza and apple crumble that she had consumed), and no matter in her duodenum. This indicates that her stomach had not even started to empty yet, let alone fully empty.

The relevant time for comparison, on the other hand, is known was "T(lag)" - which is the time between initial ingestion of solid food and the time when food first starts to pass out of the stomach. Not many studies quote T(lag) times, but most quote "T(1/2)" times - which is the time when half the ingested food has left the stomach. And even the T(1/2) times quoted rarely go beyond 4 hours at the outside limit.

 

[LondonJohn]

Here's another study which was performed by gastroenterologists using transnasal scopes, results show complete gastric emptying can take as long as 6 hours in young healthy individuals.

http://tinyurl.com/2am3k76

I think research shows the 2 to 3 hour time frame, being carved in stone by some posters here, is completely false.

Seriously? Once again?

"complete gastric emptying".

I really don't know what to make of your attempted "arguments" in this area. Can you really not see the difference between your quoted "complete gastric emptying" times and the fact that there was 500ml of content in Meredith's stomach (including food which had not even been broken down to chyme yet), and nothing in her duodenum?

If you post any more research data here, please could you make sure that it's relevant to this case: don't quote "complete gastric emptying" times - quote T(lag) times, or at worst T(1/2) times. If you find any research which shows T(lag) times beyond 3 hours, or T(1/2) times beyond 4 hours, I'd be both interested and astonished.

 

[LiamG.]

Computer activity up to and including 9:45pm is an alibi for the time up until 9:45pm. What other explanation for files opening and closing do you propose?

The last definitive human interaction with the laptop was at 21:10, not 21:45. Give me a source, that says, that there was human interaction with the laptop at 21:45.

The stomach evidence shows that Meredith was almost certainly attacked well before 9:45pm. Thus barring psychic powers, premeditation or secret elite hacking skills Amanda and Raffaele could not have been involved.

You have no medical profession, you ignore two witnesses, that heard the scream a long time after 22:00, you ignore two other witnesses, who heard the running of people, as did one person shortly after she heard the scream, at about 23:30 and you want me to believe yor rubbish theory of the ToD because of your knowledge of the stomach evidence?

 

[RoseMontague]

Here's another study which was performed by gastroenterologists using transnasal scopes, results show complete gastric emptying can take as long as 6 hours in young healthy individuals.

http://tinyurl.com/2am3k76

I think research shows the 2 to 3 hour time frame, being carved in stone by some posters here, is completely false.

This talks about residue, not the complete meal. Even the Micheli report mentions a 2-3 hour time frame.