Merged Obama enters GZ Mosque debate

[The Charnel Expanse]

I can't help but wonder why it is that the Librulz here scream about our lack of sensitivity to the cultures of others, and scream like hell when their lack of sensitivity to our culture is raised.

uh... alright, I'll bite, whose lack of sensitivity to whose culture?

 

[Thunder]

uh... alright, I'll bite, whose lack of sensitivity to whose culture?

yes, how is a Mosque offensive to American culture? I'd really like to know.

oh...wait...I got it. the USA is a "Judeo-Christian" nation. so anything other that a church or synagogue built in our land, is offensive.

got it.

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

why aren't the Conservatives and Republicans coming out on the side of private property rights and freedom of religion?

Are they fare weather Libertarians? Sure looks that way now.

As though there was ever any doubt.

I'll say it again - The Right in this country LOOOOOOVES freedom, unless it's being enjoyed by anyone black, brown, gay or non-Christian.

 

[Thunder]

You know what? I hope the Muslims do NOT back down. Stand up for your rights and freedoms, as American citizens.

Stand up against the bigots and haters. I will be with you.

 

[pgwenthold]

"Everyone that isn't in favor of the mosque is a bigot and extremist".

You keep making up reasons why you oppose it, they keep getting exposed as irrational, and instead of re-evaluating your stance, you make up something else. There MUST be something else underlying your position, that is pretty clear. That you are a bigot makes a lot more sense then any of the crap you've tried to throw at the wall.

 

[A'isha]

Give the bigot thing a rest. Nearly 70% of the people have a problem with a mosque being located there.

Ignorant and bigoted opinions aren't made correct (or any less ignorant and bigoted) when they're held by even a majority of people. That's pretty much the textbook definition of the Argumentum ad populum logical fallacy.

Oh I don't know, maybe if a radical Imam called upon other radicals to join their mosque as a sign of victory there in the death of thousands of infidels...

It might be good to read the thread before throwing out irrelevant sarcastic comments.

You really should take your own advice. As I said, the chances of a "radical Imam call[ing] upon other radicals to join their mosque as a sign of victory there in the death of thousands of infidels" happening with this particular mosque are pretty much the same as the chances of a rabbi calling upon Neo-Nazis and Holocaust Deniers to join his synagogue as a sign of victory over the perfidious Jews.

Had you actually bothered to research even the slightest bit into who is behind the Cordoba Initiative, what their religious and political views are, and what their relationship with extremist fundamentalist Islam (and those who carried out the 9/11 terror attacks) really is, you'd know that.

Had you actually bothered to read this thread, you'd also know that.

Again, give the bigot and extremists thing a rest. Apparently everyone that has a different opinion than you is a bigot and extremist including Reid and 70% of the rest of the country.

It stops becoming a matter of "different opinions" when those 70% are motivated in their opposition to this mosque by things such as the bizarre, utterly baseless-bordering-on-fictional concern s like "[what] if a radical Imam called upon other radicals to join their mosque as a sign of victory there in the death of thousands of infidels".

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Give the bigot thing a rest. Nearly 70% of the people have a problem with a mosque being located there.

Of which people?

And again, let me remind you that you were wrong about it being an issue of local zoning ordinances (and even wrong when you said Obama never mentioned that point).

The people who own the land and who wish to build their religious building there don't have a problem with it. No one else's "problem" is actually a valid problem.

Oh I don't know, maybe if a radical Imam called upon other radicals to join their mosque as a sign of victory there in the death of thousands of infidels...

There are already laws against terrorism. The people building this thing aren't terrorist.

Yes, it's bigotry when you argue as if all Muslims are terrorists.

Again, give the bigot and extremists thing a rest. Apparently everyone that has a different opinion than you is a bigot and extremist including Reid and 70% of the rest of the country.

Argumentum ad populum. It doesn't matter how many people use irrational arguments to support their position; it's still irrational.

And the other side:
"Everyone that isn't in favor of the mosque is a bigot and extremist".

It's a good sign that you're arguing against a strawman when you have to make up quotes--or are you actually quoting someone here? (And if this is an actual quote, then why don't you attribute it to a specific person?)

What I've seen many of us here in this forum pointing out is that there is no rational argument against allowing these people to build their building on their own land in lower Manhattan. I think the irrational arguments being made are based on bigotry and/or misinformation and/or emotional pleas devoid of any reasoning.

You've already shown that you have no problem inventing (false) facts to support your case. I do think it's proper in forum devoted to skepticism and rational thinking to point out that the position you've been advocating is irrational.

 

[I Am The Scum]

Give the bigot thing a rest.

Neally, in this post, you are repeatedly requesting that you not be associated with bigotry. That's a perfectly acceptable desire. Let's explore the issue further.

There are plenty of bigoted, irrational reasons to oppose the building of this mosque. I'm not making a profound statement, here. The same could be said of pretty much any issue, anywhere. I'm sure you would agree.

But if it cannot be shown that there is a rational, non-bigoted, intellectual reason for one to oppose this mosque, then it naturally follows that the irrational reasons are the only ones left. Neally, please share with us your rational reasons for opposing this mosque. If you have none, then the charges of bigotry stand.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

yes, how is a Mosque offensive to American culture? I'd really like to know.

oh...wait...I got it. the USA is a "Judeo-Christian" nation. so anything other that a church or synagogue built in our land, is offensive.

got it.

Yep. And fortunately, there is no legal, moral or other principle that says we have to respect the wrong notions that the U.S. is a Christian nation, that all Muslims are terrorists, that someone is proposing to build a mosque on Ground Zero, that the U.S. is engaged in a holy war or crusade against Islam, etc.

I think we should "offend" people who espouse these false ideas any chance we get!

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Questions for Neally:

Do you really think all Muslims are terrorists (i.e. criminals)?

If not, do you think the ones proposing the construction of this building are criminals? Do you think they were involved somehow with the 9/11 attacks?

If so, then why stop at denying them a building permit? Why not arrest them and prosecute them for their crimes?

So by now I hope you'll admit that these are people who are innocent of any wrongdoing. These are people who are protected by the First Amendment.

So what argument do you have left that would justify denying them their First Amendment rights?

And let me remind you again, there are no zoning issues or anything else like that. The *only* reason you oppose this construction is because they wish to build an Islamic religious center.

Let me remind you again that we are NOT a Christian nation, and these people were in no way whatsoever connected with the 9/11 attacks (or any other criminal activity). (So this nonsense about a victory monument is another absurd falsehood.) There is no reason for a rational person to feel offended by this building.

 

[332nd]

My point is that all the arguments in favor of the mosque raised by its defenders would still apply--freedom of religion, private property rights, other sleazy businesses in the area--and yet more people, like you, Thunder and TBK would oppose it. Indeed, Thunder goes further and says he would oppose it anywhere, not just at ground zero.

Yes, of course.

So really, those arguments are just so much eyewash. What you really mean is that you don't oppose this particular mosque because you believe that the imam has said the appropriate things, and is not a radical. So let's debate that part, not the first amendment.

I'm sorry I seem to have missed the part where I said I opposed the center being opened could you point it out to me? No? Hmmmm...

(Yes, I know I'm playing a semantics game but I see it as a fair tool against a hypothetical.)

I'm opposed to the KKK, the New Black Panthers, hell any racial superiority group, but that doesn't mean stopping them from speaking or marching.

I'm opposed to Phelps and his brood but I wouldn't seek to stop them either.

What would I do? Heh, Comicon had it right. In the case of your hypothetical, I'd try to raise money to open a community center open to everyone... or a strip club with all Muslim girls. I saw that somewhere and I liked it...

Anyway I wouldn't be opposed to the place opening so yeah, its still about the 1st amendment. I know you don't want it to be because it shows how willingly conservatives are to disregard it when it serves them but sorry, that's what it looks like right now.

Oh... right. Um... maybe one of the conservatives can post an example of liberals disregarding the constitution when it serves them and we can get the tu quoque out of they way?

 

[Taarkin]

I think we should "offend" people who espouse these false ideas any chance we get!

Is there a word for when you're not enthusiastic about something, then you see how wretched the opposition is and you switch to supporting it even if it's just to stick it to the horrible opposition? Because I'm sorta that word right now.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I can't help but wonder why it is that the Librulz here scream about our lack of sensitivity to the cultures of others, and scream like hell when their lack of sensitivity to our culture is raised.

uh... alright, I'll bite, whose lack of sensitivity to whose culture?

And I'll challenge the other part of rwguinn's post: when do Liberals scream about our lack of sensitivity to the cultures of others? Is there any example where we liberals think civil rights should be suspended in the name of cultural sensitivity? (That is, anything even roughly parallel to this situation?)

Or are you just inventing a strawman "Librul"?

By the way, this cultural insensitivity, why do you invoke it wrt to this building project and not to other projects in NY or elsewhere in the nation? (You do know that these people were not connected in any way with the 9/11 attacks, don't you? And if you think they were, why would you merely want to deny them a building permit? Why not arrest them and prosecute them for their crimes? I'm just trying to point out that your argument lacks logical consistency.)

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Because there is a concern that the center due to it's [sic] location might attract extremists.

And this is a "concern" that isn't rational either. It's born of prejudice--as if all Muslims supported the 9/11 attacks. Do you also think all black congregations should repudiate the Black Panthers (or even specific acts of violence by them) before we grant them building permits? (If not, what is the distinction?)

ETA: Or better yet, do you think we should ask the leaders of all Protestant sects around Waco, TX to renounce the violent actions of the Branch Davidians under David Koresh in the 1990s before we issue them building permits? It makes as much sense.

Still looking for you or anyone else to explain the hate for Reid's comments, as if you somehow know that he really doesn't believe the way the majority of the rest of the U.S. believes and he is lying just to get votes.

I know this has been explained to you already. You should read up on argumentum ad populum. Just because an opinion is that of a majority doesn't make it true or correct--or even reasonable.

In Reid's case, I think his comments were especially odious because I don't think he actually shares the popular misconceptions. I think he's merely playing politics and pandering to popular bigotry.

 

[Chaos]

Can you please demonstrate that this is a valid concern?

I don't know if you were being facetious in this post. In any case, can anyone else validate these concerns that extremists will be attracted to the area? This claim has been made several times without any justification.

Let´s say I´m being partially facetious here.

I am convinced that this mosque will attract bigots and extremists protesting against it, as they are not, harassing the people who visit, like a different breed of bigot harasses the people who visit abortion clinics, probably vandalize it, perhaps even try to bomb it, as a different breed of bigot bombs abortion clinics.

However, I do not think this is a reason to prohibit the mosque from being built. I think that this is a reason to have it built - to shove it into the face of the bigots, to show them that their bigotry is not accepted in the US.

Which of course would require that this bigotry actually is not accepted in the US... seeing what I see in this discussion, I have my doubts.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

However, I do not think this is a reason to prohibit the mosque from being built. I think that this is a reason to have it built - to shove it into the face of the bigots, to show them that their bigotry is not accepted in the US.

Or maybe it will eventually disabuse them of their false misconceptions and bigotry. Maybe they'll realize that not all Muslims are terrorists. That these Muslims were as much victims of 9/11 as most New Yorkers and that the building is in no way meant as any kind of celebration of 9/11 or victory marker or any such rot.

If the thing doesn't get built, we'll miss that opportunity (and the bigots who have in mind that an Islamic Center there is all of those things that it's not will continue in their delusion).

One of the best ways of exorcising prejudice is for people to meet and interact with individuals of the group they are prejudiced against. Usually the first change is the admission that not all of that group are bad (or whatever). (Maybe something like, "Most Muslims supported 9/11, but the Muslim who is now my friend is an exception.") Eventually, they may even reach the point where they realize that not even most of the group is bad (or whatever), and that it makes no sense to judge individuals based on group membership.

 

[I Am The Scum]

Or maybe it will eventually disabuse them of their false misconceptions and bigotry. Maybe they'll realize that not all Muslims are terrorists. That these Muslims were as much victims of 9/11 as most New Yorkers and that the building is in no way meant as any kind of celebration of 9/11 or victory marker or any such rot.

I'm starting to feel the same way. At first, I didn't really care one bit about the mosque, just like I don't care about any of the other mosques all over the world. But one of the most common justifications I see being played by the opposition is guilt by association. Muslims did 9/11. These are Muslims. Same thing, right?

There's no denying that there is something wrong, here. Call it racism, Islamaphobia... whatever. There is this idea floating around that these are Muslims, and therefore, bad people. This is absolutely false, and I would prefer that this absurdity be corrected as soon as possible.

In all likelihood, this mosque will be built. And when it does, nothing devastating will happen. There won't be Muslims oppressing Christians. There will be no imposition of Sharia law. Things will continue to carry on in much the same way. And then maybe, just maybe, a few will realize that these aren't bad people, after all.

The more I think about it, the more I favor this construction, because the sky is not falling, and I'm sick of people acting like it is.

 

[Lurker]

You keep making up reasons why you oppose it, they keep getting exposed as irrational, and instead of re-evaluating your stance, you make up something else. There MUST be something else underlying your position, that is pretty clear. That you are a bigot makes a lot more sense then any of the crap you've tried to throw at the wall.

Yeah, many of his reasons have been shot down already (imam never called out fanaticism...) and he has resorted to attacking the mosque because people here are calling people like him bigots. That seems to be his sole argument at this point.

 

[Lurker]

I am convinced that this mosque will attract bigots and extremists protesting against it,

Protester #1: "Hey we got a good turnout for the Mooslim mosque protest, eh?"

Protester #2: "Two more than last week, that brings us to 12. Now we are getting somewhere."

Protester #1: "Is that a Mooslim heading in right now? Hey, raghead, go back to the Middle east!!"

Protester #2: "He's carrying a gym bag, probably going to that Mooslim fitness center in there. I bet they are training for their next terrorist operation."

Protester #1: "You know, I expected to see Ground Zero from here. Beck and Hannity said it was on the hallowed ground of Ground Zero. I can't even see Ground Zero from here."

Protester #2: "I bet you can catch a glimpse of it from their mosque's top floor. You know they are up there laughing at the USA."

Protester #1: "Here's another terrorist heading inside. Hey, is that an anchor baby you are wheeling around in that stroller? You taking that little baby inside to be trained to blow us up?!!! We're watching you!"

Protester #2: "Way to tell them! Hey lady, can I see your birth certificate?!??"

Protester #1: "See the way she ran inside with her baby? She knew we were on to her."

<Protesters high five each other>

 

[Chaos]

Or maybe it will eventually disabuse them of their false misconceptions and bigotry. Maybe they'll realize that not all Muslims are terrorists. That these Muslims were as much victims of 9/11 as most New Yorkers and that the building is in no way meant as any kind of celebration of 9/11 or victory marker or any such rot.

If the thing doesn't get built, we'll miss that opportunity (and the bigots who have in mind that an Islamic Center there is all of those things that it's not will continue in their delusion).

One of the best ways of exorcising prejudice is for people to meet and interact with individuals of the group they are prejudiced against. Usually the first change is the admission that not all of that group are bad (or whatever). (Maybe something like, "Most Muslims supported 9/11, but the Muslim who is now my friend is an exception.") Eventually, they may even reach the point where they realize that not even most of the group is bad (or whatever), and that it makes no sense to judge individuals based on group membership.

You are very optimistic. I wonder where you take the justification for that.