The Islamic Epic Fail

[bikerdruid]

No.

But you can tell her she is wrong to convince her children that they should dress that way.

Get it?

what gives you the right to tell her how to raise her children?

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Well, I could tell her that... if I want to throw her friendship out the window in an incredibly insulting way.

 

[Morrigan]

She enjoyed not having to wear makeup to leave to house, or go to an expensive hairdresser or worry about her clothes, her weight, all the things women are routinely judged on.

I never wear make-up, ever, nor do I use any hairdresser (let alone "expensive" ones). I don't worry about my clothes or my weight. I get out of the house just fine.
Maybe this Pakistani woman is just incredibly insecure, but I'm gonna have to guess it's likelier she's just brainwashed.

 

[rocketdodger]

No. Who am I to tell a woman from another culture how she should dress her children, what they should eat, what to value in other people?

Who are you?

Someone who thinks that perhaps since I have to share this planet with other humans I have a right to voice my opinion regarding any process -- including child raising -- that impacts how those other humans behave towards me in the long run.

You don't agree with that? You think that any parent should be able to do whatever they want with their kids, and society should just deal with the repercussions?

 

[rocketdodger]

what gives you the right to tell her how to raise her children?

What gives her the right to brainwash my future neighbors? What gives her the right to corrupt her children so that they may influence my children in a way I don't approve?

I have a right to say whatever I want. If I want to suggest to a woman that she might be brainwashed herself, and she should be careful about conditioning her children in a similar way, you are telling me I have no "right" to open my mouth?

Honestly?

 

[bikerdruid]

What gives her the right to brainwash my future neighbors? What gives her the right to corrupt her children so that they may influence my children in a way I don't approve?

I have a right to say whatever I want. If I want to suggest to a woman that she might be brainwashed herself, and she should be careful about conditioning her children in a similar way, you are telling me I have no "right" to open my mouth?

Honestly?

you certainly have the right to speak....free speech and all.
however, you have no right to dictate how she should raise, dress or feed her children.
would you tell her that her children should be allowed to eat bacon or pork chops?

 

[FireGarden]

Well I think that is a pretty stupid example because not only do women wear trousers all the time but also there are many physical reasons why trousers are superior to skirts and furthermore I can and do wear shorts all the time, exposing more of my body than I would if I were to wear a skirt.

It's not about how much leg you show. it's about wearing clothes normally associated with women. Check out Eddie Izzard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Izzard#Transvestism

Go out tomorrow with make up on -- lipstick, eyeshadow and the rest. Why not? And pick a nice perfume. Women always get the best fragrances.

But I understand your point. Please try to understand mine -- cultural pressure is part of being human -- there is nothing wrong with it per se, and it is impossible to escape entirely -- but cultural pressure that orginates in oppression is a part of being human that most of us would like to leave behind. Would you not agree?

I don't think you do understand my point. See my clarification above. I am trying to understand yours. But it is difficult because we disagree on how to describe the cultural pressure.

You don't know what it means for some women to wear a headscarf. I suggest tuning in to some Arabic channels on satellite TV. You don't have to understand them. I only want you to watch the commercials. Obviously, hair products have models without headscarves. But when a women is involved in selling/buying insurance, say, she'll be made to look as respectable as possible. It's like having a bloke selling you insurance in jeans or a suit. Which is more common? A suit -- because of the respect such dress is supposed to carry.

And, since you are against women being told what to wear, would you care to comment on the story of the Egyptian newsreader I linked earlier?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7702895.stm

 

[FireGarden]

Nicely said.

Thank you!

 

[nchammer326]

This is just one example as to why this religion is so boring. So predictable. So yesterday. So sad. And so-called "new-age muslims" should put an underwear bomb in their mouths before they even attempt to defend this farce as anything worth considering. Shut your stupid face. You're an enabler you sad idiot.

You do not present a platform that screams against the abuse of women? Fail. You do not make any effort to crush fringe elements that believe and teach racism and sexism? Fail. You do not even attempt to build grassroots elements that help to tear down the hatred and lunacy that is like a cancer within your religion? Epic Fail.

Congratulations. You're on par with the Spanish Inquisition.

PS. Here's a picture of Mohamed you pathetic little creature:

Mohamed
; (

That sure is a logical, intelligent, mature, and reasonable argument you have right there.

 

[tsig]

Heres my problem in a nutshell though. If they are members of the RCC, and they attend an RCC church regularly, and tithe, and all the other things that are suggested by being a member of a church, then dont they?

Because the RCC seems to right to the man at the top. They cover it up, protect the perps and give only the least condemnation possible.

The RCC is a business. And business is good. If the financial members of that business dont talk with their feet and their cash the same as they would at any other business they didnt approve of the practices of business wont change. And if people are helping to support the church then they tacitly do support what it supports, all or nothing.

That said, I know several EX members of RCC that dont condone child rape.

As to the head covering for muslim women: My pharmacist here in Phoenix is a Muslim woman. She wears a head scarf.
The fact that she is my pharmacist (and the head pharmacist as well) means that she got an education and a full time job despite those overbearing Muslim husbands. A job that pays well enough that if she really wanted to lose the scarf she could at will, along with the husband if he didn't like it. So, her choice.

So you know her situation in life.

 

[rocketdodger]

It's not about how much leg you show. it's about wearing clothes normally associated with women. Check out Eddie Izzard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Izzard#Transvestism

Go out tomorrow with make up on -- lipstick, eyeshadow and the rest. Why not? And pick a nice perfume. Women always get the best fragrances.

No, the issue is *exactly* about how much leg I show. Maybe this is where you misunderstand me -- I object to the idea that a woman should have to "cover up" a part of her body where men do not. For the record I feel that way about breasts in western society as well -- if a woman wants to display them she should be able to, since men can.

It's like having a bloke selling you insurance in jeans or a suit. Which is more common? A suit -- because of the respect such dress is supposed to carry.

But "respectful" dress is a genuine choice -- if you want the job, you let people know you have a certain level of respect for the rules of society.

And again, the rules are the same for men and women in western society -- coporate wear involves dress shoes or heels, pants or a very formal skirt, dress shirt and tie or a nice blouse, and groomed hair or makeup.

And, since you are against women being told what to wear, would you care to comment on the story of the Egyptian newsreader I linked earlier?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7702895.stm

I will comment later tonight when I get to it after work.

 

[rocketdodger]

you certainly have the right to speak....free speech and all.
however, you have no right to dictate how she should raise, dress or feed her children.
would you tell her that her children should be allowed to eat bacon or pork chops?

I don't understand why people keep using such bad examples -- those food products can be extremely unhealthy, so the choice to keep kids from eating them can be painted in terms of empirical physical well-being.

Headwear -- not so much.

 

[Robin]

I don't understand why people keep using such bad examples -- those food products can be extremely unhealthy, so the choice to keep kids from eating them can be painted in terms of empirical physical well-being.

Headwear -- not so much.

I don't think there are any absolutes here. If I had a daughter I might tell her to dress modestly, as in "you're not going out dressed like that!"

Different cultures might have different standards about what "that" is.

I think the full burqa is about oppressing women, but a general injunction to dress modestly is not. Somewhere in between there is a grey area.

 

[bikerdruid]

I don't understand why people keep using such bad examples -- those food products can be extremely unhealthy, so the choice to keep kids from eating them can be painted in terms of empirical physical well-being.

Headwear -- not so much.

whatever....it is still not your business to dictate to her.
and....what's wrong with pork chops?

 

[Cavemonster]

I don't understand why people keep using such bad examples -- those food products can be extremely unhealthy, so the choice to keep kids from eating them can be painted in terms of empirical physical well-being.

Headwear -- not so much.

?
Tell that to the pork council, lean pork can be an extremely healthy protein.
Depending on the cut, pork often has less fat, less saturated fat and less cholesterol than chicken or beef.

http://www.theotherwhitemeat.com/NutritionalInfo_ComparePork.aspx

 

[rocketdodger]

?
Tell that to the pork council, lean pork can be an extremely healthy protein.
Depending on the cut, pork often has less fat, less saturated fat and less cholesterol than chicken or beef.

http://www.theotherwhitemeat.com/NutritionalInfo_ComparePork.aspx

I think I may have misunderstood -- I thought the question was more like "would you tell a parent to let their children eat fatty, unhealthy food," because I saw "bacon."

Was the intented meaning instead "would you tell a Jewish parent to let their kids eat non-kosher meat?"

Because then the answer is absolutely, I think the idea of "kosher" is obsolete and borderline oppressive. Even if it isn't oppressive, it is certainly brainwashing.

 

[FireGarden]

No, the issue is *exactly* about how much leg I show. Maybe this is where you misunderstand me -- I object to the idea that a woman should have to "cover up" a part of her body where men do not. For the record I feel that way about breasts in western society as well -- if a woman wants to display them she should be able to, since men can.

Well that is where we are talking about two different things. Because I picked up on the "cultural pressure" you were talking about. We all have it. And which clothes are for which gender is a big part of it.

On toplessness....
http://www.pressherald.com/news/Women-march-topless-in-Portland-without-incident.html

About two dozen women marched topless from Longfellow Square to Tommy's Park this afternoon in an effort to erase what they see as a double standard on male and female nudity.

[...] Ty McDowell, who organized the march, said she was "enraged" by the turnout of men attracted to the demonstration. The purpose, she said, was for society to have the same reaction to a woman walking around topless as it does to men without shirts on.

However, McDowell said she plans to organize similar demonstrations in the future and said she would be more "aggressive" in discouraging oglers.

It reminds me of a conversation about privacy in Japan. To overlay it on the above story: it's not rude to be topless in public, it's rude to stare! It's a bit tough to legislate what people are allowed to look at, however. How are you going to discourage oglers? Prevent them from using public space while topless women make use of it?

There are cultures where women can be as topless as men. Ours isn't currently one of them.

But "respectful" dress is a genuine choice -- if you want the job, you let people know you have a certain level of respect for the rules of society.

And again, the rules are the same for men and women in western society -- coporate wear involves dress shoes or heels, pants or a very formal skirt, dress shirt and tie or a nice blouse, and groomed hair or makeup.

What do you mean by "genuine choice"? What is it about jeans and t-shirts, other than our arbitrary fashion, which means we respect people less if they wear them?

And how do you say the rules are the same for men and women? If a man turned up for an interview for an office job wearing a skirt, stockings and make-up do you think he would get it? Would he be elected President/Prime Minister dressed that way? You may say that this should not be a factor, but it is. Just like toplessness isn't the same for men and women in our culture.

I will comment later tonight when I get to it after work.

Thanks in advance.

 

[FireGarden]

I think I may have misunderstood -- I thought the question was more like "would you tell a parent to let their children eat fatty, unhealthy food," because I saw "bacon."

Was the intented meaning instead "would you tell a Jewish parent to let their kids eat non-kosher meat?"

Because then the answer is absolutely, I think the idea of "kosher" is obsolete and borderline oppressive. Even if it isn't oppressive, it is certainly brainwashing.

It's no more brainwashing than the manner in which you were convinced that lipstick and stockings are for women.

 

[rocketdodger]

And how do you say the rules are the same for men and women? If a man turned up for an interview for an office job wearing a skirt, stockings and make-up do you think he would get it? Would he be elected President/Prime Minister dressed that way? You may say that this should not be a factor, but it is. Just like toplessness isn't the same for men and women in our culture.

Yes, yes, I know -- I am not claiming my culture, or any culture in general, is free of biases. In fact I would claim that an effective society *needs* such biases to function efficiently.

But I am not sure you can trace the trousers vs skirt issue back to some oppressive idea. We can certainly try it, it would be an interesting exercise.

On the other hand (and I could be wrong) it seems to me that the bare head vs. covered head issue can be traced back to the status of women in pre-islamic arabia/persia as owned property.

 

[rocketdodger]

What do you mean by "genuine choice"? What is it about jeans and t-shirts, other than our arbitrary fashion, which means we respect people less if they wear them?

I mean that it is a person's choice whether they want to work as a stock broker or a car salesman or a garbage collector or, on the very opposite end of the spectrum, a video game developer (we wear whatever the **** we want, every day).

And for some reason society has dictated that if someone wants to communicate "I respect the established rules of society to the degree that my employer desires -- the degree my employer wishes the public to perceive me as respecting, and the degree my coworkers decided to perceive each other as respecting" they should wear a suit and pants as a man or a blouse and pants/skirt as a woman, and have well groomed hair, clean skin, etc.

Other cultures have other dress "codes" but they all function for the same reason in FREE society -- to let other individuals know whether you are part of their group in some way. If you don't want to be part of the group you don't have to dress like that.

We have such agreed upon standards on the internet as well, so it isn't limited to dress. It extends to all facets of behavior.

I realize this applies equally well to things like a hijab but again, the hijab has roots in oppression as far as I can tell, and there are currently countries with laws forcing women to wear them, or more. Are there any countries that force women to wear skirts instead of pants?