Who started both World Wars?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If the US knew, there would've been better options than to let it happen, such as ambushing the Japanese fleet.

We had 22 submarines in the Pacific. Even with bad torpedoes we'd have given Nagumo a nervous breakdown.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I have no doubt that long term, Stalin was probably planning to attack Nazi Germany.

One paranoid, sick, twisted dictator attacking another? Why do you believe that?

 

[dudalb]

If Hitler had behaved like a rational person, Stalin would have been right. He was way premature in attacking the Soviets without sufficient preparations for a winter campaign.

I've heard a couple of reasons for why Hitler attacked when he did. The first is that he thought the British would crumble in despair if they didn't have the hope of rescue from the Soviets. Another, probably more accurate reason was that Hitler was starting to show the symptoms of Parkinson's disease and feared he would die before being able to complete his great conquests.

I also think that Hitler, possibly because of the Soviet Union's poor showing against Finland in the Winter War..Yes,they won,but they look horrible doing it...really did think that the Soviet Union would be a pushover and it would be done before winter.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I also think that Hitler, possibly because of the Soviet Union's poor showing against Finland in the Winter War..Yes,they won,but they look horrible doing it...really did think that the Soviet Union would be a pushover and it would be done before winter.

Not the first time Hitler rolled the dice and lost.

 

[9/11-investigator]

I have no doubt that long term, Stalin was probably planning to attack Nazi Germany. But there is no evidence that an attack was anywhere near imminent in June 1941. And as much as I hate Stalin, I have to admit that his thinking that an attack by Nazi Germany was inevitable somewhere along the line was right. The screwup he made was in timing,he miscalculated how long he could buy off Germany with raw materials,hopefully until Russia was fully rearmed.

Don't do this to yourself.

For future reference:

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/selfportrait/1.5

'And in September 1941 when Churchill was still being obdurate, Churchill was promising to deliver the goods to [Chaim] Weizmann, but still not actually signing on the dotted line. Weizmann wrote a letter, which I have found in Weizmann's private papers because I was given access to his papers in the State of Israel, in return for the kind of horse trading that the Israelis and so on are pretty good at. And they delivered these papers to me and there was this letter in which Weizmann said 'You've got to remember that we are the biggest independent community in the United States". At this time we were still trying to lure the United States into World War II remember, we were still trying to lure them in and President Roosevelt couldn't swing round American public opinion Pearl Harbour hadn't happened, Churchill was having a hard time throughout 1941, the battle of the Atlantic was in sight and Weizmann said "You've got to remember the Jewish community in the United States. We are the largest cohesive body in the United States, which is on your side, on the British side, don't ignore us. We did it before in World War I, and we can do it again now, we can drag the United States into the War. "We did it before and we can do it again."

 

[9/11-investigator]

I also think that Hitler, possibly because of the Soviet Union's poor showing against Finland in the Winter War..Yes,they won,but they look horrible doing it...really did think that the Soviet Union would be a pushover and it would be done before winter.

The Germans lost because the Russians could retreat endlessly, no Russian version of the Schlieffen Plan necessary here. And the climate worked against the Germans.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Don't do this to yourself.

For future reference:

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/selfportrait/1.5

The advent of the Internet means you can't use this kind of thing for toilet paper any more.

 

[SanityGap]

Don't do this to yourself.

For future reference:

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/selfportrait/1.5

You're quoting from Irving vs Lipstadt? Where Irving was proved a liar?
Outstanding

 

[dafydd]

.
May I suggest that no one even acknowledge any attempts by 9/11 to change the subject until he explains the Phillipine attack, and what this means to zir lies about PH?
.

Good idea.

 

[dafydd]

LOL. You should read the article, it's full of Jewish names. Incredible article. Astounding, really. Mark Weber is the man !

Run along,the grown-ups are talking.

 

[dafydd]

For the LOLs, of course. No other reason.

Yes,it's fun watching 911 investigoogler making a lul out of himself.

 

[Corsair 115]

A quick Google gives the text at http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/Dip/Fourteen.html, and it's very clearly not a declaration of war in any sense; it doesn't even constitute a formal breaking off of diplomatic relations. It's notable for the fact that it says nothing whatsoever about future Japanese intentions.

Well, I was half-right. I appreciate the correction on the other half.

I had heard the message was somewhat vague, but it seems it was even more vague than was my understanding.

I also think that Hitler, possibly because of the Soviet Union's poor showing against Finland in the Winter War..Yes,they won, but they look horrible doing it...really did think that the Soviet Union would be a pushover and it would be done before winter.

You can find quotes from senior Reich officials to that effect. It seems the Germans were completely unaware of the beating the Russians had inflicted on the Japanese two years before. Either that, or they discounted it.

The Germans lost because the Russians could retreat endlessly, no Russian version of the Schlieffen Plan necessary here. And the climate worked against the Germans.

No, the real reason the Germans lost was hubris. They completely underestimated the Russians' abilities and overestimated their own. The original invasion plans calculated that eight to ten weeks were all that was needed to defeat Russia. Later, enlarged and more detailed plans initially put the time required to five months.

The only problem was the German military was entirely unprepared for a campaign of that length.

The force-to-space ratio was completely inadequate. Of the German's better tanks, the Panzer III and IVs, there were just 1,400 available for a front of some 2,000 miles. Barbarossa began with some 150 German divisions, only 15 more than had been used in the attacks westward in May of 1940. The number of tanks was only 30% greater. But the battlefield area was twenty times larger. This is not a recipe for success.

More importantly, there's the matter of logistical support, which was wholly insufficient. The quality of the Russian roads was often poor, but that was of little consequence since the Germans didn't have anywhere near enough trucks to supply their forces. This meant they had to rely on railways to transport the necessary military supplies. But the Russian railways ran on a different gauge from the German, and that meant the tedious task of tearing up of Russian rail lines and replacing them with German. Either that, or capturing and using Russian trains, which, even if possible, would have meant the laborious unloading of the German trains and the loading of the captured Russian trains.

How did the Germans respond to these logistial challenges? Not by increasing its logistical abilities or scaling back its invasion plans to a more realistic and manageable level. No, it dealt with these formidable challenges by wishing them away. Rather than accept it might not be able to adequately supply its forces, it simply reduced the estimates of the ammunition and fuel which would be consumed by its invading forces. Rather than accept its railways might not be able to support the planned speed of the advance, it simply increased the estimates of how much supply the railways could move and how quickly. Rather than accept that its military might need winter provisions, it simply decreased the amount of time estimated to successfully defeat the Russians.

The entire Barbarossa operation was an exercise in self-deception and self-delusion.

 

[MG1962]

I have no doubt that long term, Stalin was probably planning to attack Nazi Germany. But there is no evidence that an attack was anywhere near imminent in June 1941. And as much as I hate Stalin, I have to admit that his thinking that an attack by Nazi Germany was inevitable somewhere along the line was right. The screwup he made was in timing,he miscalculated how long he could buy off Germany with raw materials,hopefully until Russia was fully rearmed.

There were a number of factors. Stalin had to watch the Japanese. He was also re-organisng the Soviet army. Both these had to be resolved before any serious attempt could be made to invest in an attack on Germany

He also asumed the possiblity the Germans would jump before he did. If so his advisers suggested the Germans would drive hard into the Moscow Leningrad area. As restructured and re-equiped units came on line they were transfered to Stalingrad - Hence an elite attack force could drive into the exposed Southern flank of the Germans.

The Germans however advanced in three army groups - One tasked with taking Stalingrad. IF Hitler had not dicked around with the 6th Panzer Army there is strong chance that the battle that ultimately occured for Stalingrad would never have occured

 

[MG1962]

One paranoid, sick, twisted dictator attacking another? Why do you believe that?

I saw a wonderful interview from veteran tanker during the great patriotic war. He was asked why the Russian people didn't thrown in with Hitler given what Stalin was like

His response

We were faced by two bastards. One spoke Russian, the other didn't. We picked the one we could understand

I laughed when I heard that. Russian pragmatism at its best.

 

[MG1962]

The Germans lost because the Russians could retreat endlessly, no Russian version of the Schlieffen Plan necessary here. And the climate worked against the Germans.

Now here is a great thing to study if you want to do some honest research about WW2 - Did the Germans drive the Russians back or did the Russians allow themselves to be pushed back so that the Germans would be in the worst possible position come winter.

One of the great arguments on the net, and to my knowledge one that no one has ever delivered a definitive answer too

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Now here is a great thing to study if you want to do some honest research about WW2 - Did the Germans drive the Russians back or did the Russians allow themselves to be pushed back so that the Germans would be in the worst possible position come winter.

One of the great arguments on the net, and to my knowledge one that no one has ever delivered a definitive answer too

As the Sovs weren't but about half way to the Urals, they still had space to trade for time. So I'd give them ~75% "space for time". The other ~25% would be "standing your ground and dying here allows us to build another line of resistance behind you."

 

[MG1962]

As the Sovs weren't but about half way to the Urals, they still had space to trade for time. So I'd give them ~75% "space for time". The other ~25% would be "standing your ground and dying here allows us to build another line of resistance behind you."

And that adds another element to the question. When would Russia be officially beaten. Obviously destroying Moscow means nothing, that'd happened before and the Russians did care. Rebuilt the place as if nothing happened

When you get to the Urals, only got another 10,000 miles to the Pacific coast lol

 

[dudalb]

Now here is a great thing to study if you want to do some honest research about WW2 - Did the Germans drive the Russians back or did the Russians allow themselves to be pushed back so that the Germans would be in the worst possible position come winter.

One of the great arguments on the net, and to my knowledge one that no one has ever delivered a definitive answer too

You have to look at the enormous losses, by the Russians, and the number of "Stand and die" orders . I don't think the Russians were withdrawing by choice. Simply no way they would have given up as much territory ..and valuable territory..as they did voluntarily. Yes, the distance turned out to be a killer for the Germans, but I don't think it was a deliberate strategy. Frankly, the "it was all a trap" advocates don't know their history.

 

[MG1962]

You have to look at the enormous losses, by the Russians, and the number of "Stand and die" orders . I don't think the Russians were withdrawing by choice. Simply no way they would have given up as much territory ..and valuable territory..as they did voluntarily. Yes, the distance turned out to be a killer for the Germans, but I don't think it was a deliberate strategy. Frankly, the "it was all a trap" advocates don't know their history.

Any normal country lead by a normal leader you are right. Stalin....I honestly would not put it past him. However a very good documentary interviewed many veterans of the war. They give the impression that the first few months of the war the average Russian was not all to concerned. They thought it would be like other wars. Germans come Germans go, peace treaty, back to normal

One of those interviewed quoted the famous Brothers and Sisters" speech from July 41 - Which I think is wrong because it is too soon for what he proposes.

He went on to say once the Russian people realised this was not a normal war, but about their very existence as a people. The average fighting man's attitude and the general population changed

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

And that adds another element to the question. When would Russia be officially beaten. Obviously destroying Moscow means nothing, that'd happened before and the Russians did care. Rebuilt the place as if nothing happened

When you get to the Urals, only got another 10,000 miles to the Pacific coast lol

Look at a topographic map of Russia. The line of the Ural would have been bristling with defenses by the time the Heer got there, and the supply lines back to Germany would have stretched out over that steppe like ducks in a shooting gallery. Russia couldn't be defeated in my opinion, they could only give up.