Who started both World Wars?

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The idea of a discussion forum is to point out why the ideas posted are false.

It has been done throughout the thread. I'm sorry if you are unable to understand that.

Not to throw with mud.

Nazis like you rub me the wrong way.

But I guess that is difficult if you are defending the weaker case, namely that of a non-existing Anglo sainthood.

I'm not defending that, but thanks for attempting to strawman my argument. It shows how little you actually have in the form of arguments.

By the way, according to your world view, I am clearly superior to you, being a blonde northman. Your puny dutch physique is no match for me, and your continental intellect is no match for my Aryan superior mind. Now run along, little nazi. Your kind died out in 1945.
 
This whole "Roosevelt let Pearl Harbor happen" crap doesn't even make any sense. If he actually knew that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor, it would have made much more sense to mount a counter attack, or simply move all of the warships in the harbor out. The first option presents the possibility of destroying the attacking Japanese ships, while the second would mean that no US warships get destroyed. And a failed attack or an attack on an empty harbor would have still been plenty enough to get Congress to declare war.
 
The idea of a discussion forum is to point out why the ideas posted are false.

Not to throw with mud.
Maybe you should start living up to that yourself, and stop posting IHR links. Those guys are proven liars.

You could also start actually reading what others have to post here. Thus far, you've given scant (not to say none whatsoever) evidence of that.

Let's, for instance, repeat that question that has been asked a gazillion times already. What do you think of Hitler's occupation of the Czech rump state, apart from "mistake"? What did that do to Hitler's credibility in the eyes of England and France when he claimed that Danzig now really, really was the last demand? What does that do to Hitler's credibility in your eyes?
 
This whole "Roosevelt let Pearl Harbor happen" crap doesn't even make any sense. If he actually knew that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor, it would have made much more sense to mount a counter attack, or simply move all of the warships in the harbor out. The first option presents the possibility of destroying the attacking Japanese ships, while the second would mean that no US warships get destroyed. And a failed attack or an attack on an empty harbor would have still been plenty enough to get Congress to declare war.

[Conspiracy Nut Mode ON]Oh, no! Starting a war with a defeat is the perfect way to do it. And by starting a war in the Pacific FDR was guaranteed a war in the Atlantic. That stuff about not having enough ships to fight a two-ocean war is just silly. If we didn't have that many ships why did FDR let so many of them get sunk?[Conspiracy Nut Mode OFF]
 
Discussion won without a fight.

Tomorrow I am going to concentrate on Barbarossa.

Material:

New Evidence on the 1941 'Barbarossa' Attack: Why Hitler Attacked Soviet Russia When He Did
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n3p40_Michaels.html

Examining Stalin's 1941 Plan to Attack Germany
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n6p40_Michaels.html

Stalin Prepared for Summer 1941 Attack
By Mark Weber
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p501a_Weber.html

Stalin's War
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p222_Smith.html

Exposing Stalin's Plan to Conquer Europe
How the Soviet Union 'Lost' the Second World War
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n4p30_Michaels.html

Suvorov - http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n4p30_Michaels.html
Exposing Stalin's Plan to Conquer Europe

Hitler's 'Barbarossa' Proclamation - http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n6p50_Hitler.html

President Roosevelt's Campaign To Incite War in Europe:
The Secret Polish Documents - http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p135_Weber.html

Defeat in the East: Russia Conquers -- January to May 1945 - http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v03/v03p-91_Thorwald.html

Der Zweite Weltkrieg: Ursachen Und Anlass - http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v05/v05p408_Granata.html

The Eastern Front: The Soviet-German War, 1941-45 - http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p244_Lutton.html

Russian Specialist Lays Bare Stalin's Plan to Conquer Europe
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n6p22_Bishop.html

The Origins of the Second World War
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p-95_Franz-Willing.html

Soviet Russia's Persecution of Latvia, 1918 to the Present
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p-25_Berkis.html

Well, at least you're going into it with an open mind.
 
911 - why do you see the Soviet attack on Germany as some sort of secret history. Everyone knows they two nations were going to have it out. The only debating point is when it was to happen
 
911 - why do you see the Soviet attack on Germany as some sort of secret history. Everyone knows they two nations were going to have it out. The only debating point is when it was to happen

The point he undoubtedly is going to make is that Saint Adolf struck pre-emptively because he "knew" that perfidious Jozef was going to strike in 1941. Never mind the poor preparations, the fact that half of the SU tanks were not in an operable state, etc. But he thinks by proving that Stalin was planning on striking at Germany, he absolves Hitler from another front he initiated all by himself. Just as poor Adolf only out of pure necessity in a defensive measure took Austria, Sudetenland, Poland, Denmark, Norway, the Low Countries and France. Poor Adolf had no choice. Oh, and the rump Czech state - we should disregard that, that's a measurement error.
 
FDR wanted to restore world trade to recover from the depression.

That BASTARD!

He wanted to cooperate with the USSR. Roosevelt aspired a NOW under American leadership (2:45). In his view there should be close cooperation between USA, UK, USSR and China. Authoritarian states like Germany, Italy and Japan were seen as the antipodes of a liberal world order and ’danger to world peace’.

Just because of that nasty habit of invading nearby countries and slaughtering the people. Talk about discrimination!

Roosevelt had no problem with the marxist USSR.

Incorrect. All American leaders had a problem with the marxist USSR. It's just that it had not yet become a superpower and was thus not a major threat.

Roosevelt was sure that the USSR would develop itself to become more democratic, while New Deal America would slowly adopt more socialist principles (convergence theory). Roosevelt was decidedly pro-Chinese in it’s conflict with Japan. Nevertheless, at the outbreak of the war declared the US itself as neutral, to the disappointment of the Chinese. Roosevelt had to consider strong isolationalist tendencies of the opposition in Congress resulting from WW1. In 1937 hiwever Roosevelt wanted to put agressor nations (’gangster states’) into 'quarantaine', meaning political and economic isolation in order to realise a 'regime-change' in the long run.

That BASTARD! Using non-violent means to achieve political change...didn't he know the most cultured and intelligent people in the world resolve their conflicts by bashing heads?

Germany had concentrated itself since the 1920’s on China. At the same time their was German-Japanese raprochement. The Germans tried to mediate between china and Japan when in 1937 the war between Japan and China broke out but failed with negative consequences for all 3 parties (7:10). Churchill as early as september 1939 had suggested that the US should enter the European war via the Japanese back door (8:10). But without permission of Congress could Roosevelt not intervene in Europe, unless of course America itself would be attacked. In 1939 the relations with Japan had futher deteriorated. In july embargo on plane and equipment. Beginning 1940 further measures. The american ambassador in Tokyo Joseph Grew already warned in autumn 1939 against an oil embargo, otherwise Japan would be forced to get the oil from British or Dutch colonies elsewhere in Asia. In order to prevent this Roosevelt ordered to move his Pacific Fleet from San Diego to Pearl Harbor in jan 1940. As a result Japan, Germany and Italy in 27 september 1940 agreed on an alliance.

The 3 parties agreed to help each other if one of them would be attacked by the US. The goal was deterrence. But at the same time opened this pact the door to war, what Roosevelt had wanted all along. Jan 1941 Japanese proposals to restore good relations with the US. Japan proposed to de facto cancel the Tripartite Pact and to withdraw all it’s troops from Asia except Manchuria, a far reaching proposal. Roosevelt and Cordell Hull were hardly interested.

Seems hard to believe. I would like to see some support for this claim.

In August 1940 American decrypters were able to break an important code (purple code) Mid 1941 the Americans were able to read the messages between the Japanese foreign ministery and Japanese ambassies. Code name Magic.

21 July 1941 Japanese invaded French Indo-China (Vietnam). In reaction Roosevelt frooze Japanese assets in the US and began an oil embargo. Earlier in April 1941 there had been a secret agreement between the US, British and Dutch government in exile that their would be a common militairy response if British or Dutch colonial territory would be invaded by the Japanese (3:35). During the Atlantic Conference August 14, 1941, Roosevelt promised Churchill that the US would soon enter war in Asia. 27 Jan 1942 Churchill declared in Parliament confirmed this while adding that war entry would even happen if the US was not attacked, which garantees our final victory. The Japanese proposed a summit with the US in August 1941. Roosevelt doubted but Hull was against. At the time Roosevelt’s main foreign policy goal was entering war with Germany (5:40). One of the tactics was to provoke a German U-boat attack on American vessels. But the German navy avoided any confrontation and accepted considerable disadvantages in the process. 11 September Roosevelt ordered explicit shooting of German U-boats. In the Atlantic an undeclared war now prevailed. It was obvious for the Americans the Germany would not declare war. The only way that remained to engage in war was via Japan (7:00). In the mean time Japan got a military government. Since Japan had a GBP of only 10% of that of the US, the Japanese realized that their chances of winning a war with the US were minimal. Yamamoto had internally declared that Japan could withstand the US for maybe a year. The new military government prefered a negotiated settlement over war for this reason. November 1, 1941 Japanese high level internal meeting about the critical condition of the industry if the oil embargo is to be continued. Concensus was reached that if negotiations with the US would fail that Japan had to go to war. On November 4 a cable to the Japanese ambassy in Washington said that the limit was reached. A last attempt to negotiate should be undertaken. If that fails, the relation between Japan and US will be on the edge of the abyss (The Americans as said before knew the content of this message).


November 5 cable from Japanese FM to amb. that 25 November was the dead line. This msg was also intercepted by the Americans. It was obvious that a war would start after November 25.

On November 21 last offer to State Department. Content: 6 month truce to come to an allcompassing solution. Again offer to cancel Tripartite Pact with Berlin and Rome.

I doubt it.

Next day message to Japanese negotiators that deadline had postponed for 4 days (November 29) but that after that events would folloow automatically. Msg again intercepted by Americans. November 25 Japanese naval units coursed for Pearl Harbor. November 25, meeting in the White House between Roosevelt, Hull, Stark, Marshall, Stimson. All knew that November 29 was the dead line. Stimson wrote in his diary that Roosevelt had said that the US probably would be attacked, maybe already next Monday. The Japanese are notorious for surprise attacks. The question was how we could manouver them in a position that they shoot first, without endangering ourselves too much. Hull was in favor of halting the negotiations. The pressure from British and Chinese was decisive. It was Hull who answered the Japanese negotiators the same day that the Japanese should withdraw all troops from entire China, including Manchuria, recognition of the Chiang-Kai-shek regime and public cancelling Tripartite Pact. This was unacceptable for Japan. Everybody understood war was now immanent (6:10). Next day Stimson called Hull, who literally said that from now on it was a matter of navy and army.

13 Feb 1932 admiral Harry Yarnell had demonstrated the possibility to surprise attack Pearl Harbor from aircraft carriers. The leadership of the Navy realised the vulnerable position of it’s fleet. On 8 October 1940 had admiral Richardson already advised Roosevelt not to permanently station the Pacific fleet in PH.

On that same meeting Richardson had asked the president when he thought that the US would enter the war. Roosevelt had answered that at some point the Japanese would make a mistake and at that moment would the US enter the war (8:33). Feb 1 1941, Richardson was replaced by admiral Kimmel.

Jan 1941 Yamamoto started to draw the first plans for a surprise attack on PH. PH was only part of a larger strategic plan. The July 1941 oil embarbo forced the Japanese to capture the Dutch East Indies. US and UK diplomats had already told the Japanese that such a move would mean war. A Japanese assault would be threatened in the flank by the Pacific fleet. Hence the decision to attack PH.

Kimmel and Short were hardly informed about the political situation by Washington. They knew nothing about Magic. They got no warning. Instead they were summoned to send away 2 aircraft carriers Enterprise and Lexington on November 27 to the islands of Wake and Midway, with the task of transporting airplanes to those locations. In this way the rest of the fleet was deprived of it’s strongest means of protection. December 7 was planned as the date of attack.

October 1940 Americans had also succeeded in breaking the code of Kaigun. Despite that Yamamoto had ordered strict radio silence several Japanese ships communicated encrypted their positions. This data was captured in Hawaii, Seatlle and other American locations (4:10). The American leadership was complete aware of what was coming.

No.

On November 28 a telegram went from Japan to the embassy in Washington explaining why the Japanese government could not accept the humiliating American conditions. This meant that for the Japanese the deadline had passed.

On November 30, the Japanese ambassy in Berlin was informed likewise. The amb was told to inform Hitler that there was the utmost chance of a war between Japan and the Anglo-saxons and that it could happen faster than anyone could imagine.

December 6, 10:40, Roosevelt received a msg from American ambassador in London that 2 Japanese naval units, as observed by the British, had crossed the line that should trigger action as agreed upon with the British and the Dutch (ABCD). This meant that the US, UK and The Netherlands were at war, even before one shot was fired.

Roosevelt was now in a precarious situation (9:35). He was at war on the basis of a secret agreement, wothout knowledge, let alone aprovement of Congress. A huge scandal now threatened to occur, unless of course if the Japanese would fire the first shot. For this reason alone PH could not be warned. Because that would have meant big alarm and ships sailing out of the harbor.

No. Conjecture and fantasy.


The scandal probably had implied impeachment of Roosevelt.

Heh! No.

As a consequence Kimmel and Short did not receive serious warnings resulting in that they were held responsible for the desaster. On December 6 Roosevelt got an intercepted msg on his deks meaning that war was inevitable. Advisor Harry Hopkins who was with Roosevelt said that it was too bas that the war would start with an advantage of the Japanese. Roosevelt replied that we cannot hit first. 'We are a democracy. We are a pieaceloving nation. We have a good reputation'. :D

Outbreak of the war was only a matter of hours. On December 7, the Japanese ambassy received the instruction to hand over a declaration of war on 13:00 Washington time to the state department. Leading officers who intercepted the message had little doubt that Pearl Harbor would be the target. They advised Stark to warn Hawaii (3:10). Stark said that he needed the permission of Marshall. Marshall however could not be reached, he was on a trip that lasted two-and-a-half hours. When Marshall returned and read the msg he wrote a very general phrased warning to general Short. He used a commercial RCA radio connection rather than military lines. Every sense of urgency was ommited. The result was that the ‘warning’ reached Hawaii 7 hours after the attack. We can assume that the delay was deliberate.

On 7:55 AM, 350 planes attacked in 2 waves. The surprise was complete. 2400 people killed. The oil storage was not destroyed. No carrier was destroyed and proved to be the most potent weapon of the Pacific war. The interventionist press did it’s work, and the until then leading isolationists were silenced over night. Hitler was completely surprised. On December 8, the German navy received orders to attack American ships without restraint.

Roosevelt decided to leave the declaration of war to the Germans (December 11, 1941).

The American were not yet ready to intervene in Europe. Hitler calculated that he had another year to defeat the Soviets. The war had turned in a World War.
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Still anybody here who wants to maintain the ludicrous idea that Roosevelt knew nothing in advance?

Straw man. No one has claimed that Roosevelt knew NOTHING. The possibility of a sneak attack by Japan was considered by the military as early as the 1920's! The Pearl Harbor command was offered to Admiral Nimitz before it went to Kimmel, but he turned it down because he knew there was a very strong possibility that the Japanese would attack there, and whoever was in charge would become a scapegoat.

I would encourage you to read a book by someone who was actually THERE, and who actually knew what was going on. The book is called "And I Was There" by Edwin Layton, who worked in Naval intelligence during this time.

That is, if you want to understand what actually happened, and not what you would like to have happened.
 
However, if a normal person has a question about that nonsense I'll give it a shot, it's a slow evening.
Not about that crap - I haven't even read it, and I know little of the Pacific War. But why did Hitler declare war on the US? He wasn't obliged to it by the Tripartite Treaty. Had he such a poor grasp of the economic power the US had and the ability to translate that to military power (not to speak of the resolve the US and its population put to the task, but that's a much more subjective matter)? Didn't he realize that the US intervention at the end of WW1 helped to tip the balance (oh, no, it were the socialists and Jews that betrayed the German war effort from inside - stupid me)?

Lastly, what were the chances that the US would declare war on Germany, had Hitler not been so stupid to do so? As I understand, Germany did already anger the US by U-boat operations in US waters on the East Coast, but the American population wasn't keen on getting involved in the European theater.
 
Not about that crap - I haven't even read it, and I know little of the Pacific War. But why did Hitler declare war on the US? He wasn't obliged to it by the Tripartite Treaty. Had he such a poor grasp of the economic power the US had and the ability to translate that to military power (not to speak of the resolve the US and its population put to the task, but that's a much more subjective matter)? Didn't he realize that the US intervention at the end of WW1 helped to tip the balance (oh, no, it were the socialists and Jews that betrayed the German war effort from inside - stupid me)?

Lastly, what were the chances that the US would declare war on Germany, had Hitler not been so stupid to do so? As I understand, Germany did already anger the US by U-boat operations in US waters on the East Coast, but the American population wasn't keen on getting involved in the European theater.
There's no good reason for him to do so, except for bravado perhaps. If you want to hear what he said:

HITLER ANNOUNCED TO THE REICHSTAG THE DECLARATION OF WAR AGAINST THE UNITED STATES

December 11, 1941

THE GERMAN DECLARATION OF WAR WITH THE UNITED STATES

December 11, 1941
 
October 1940 Americans had also succeeded in breaking the code of Kaigun. Despite that Yamamoto had ordered strict radio silence several Japanese ships communicated encrypted their positions. This data was captured in Hawaii, Seatlle and other American locations (4:10)


Are you suggesting the Pearl Harbor attack fleet broke radio silence on its way to its target? If so, Japanese records disagree with you. Their sources show no transmission was sent during the task force's journey across the Pacific. Indeed, radio silence was deemed so important for the task force that the radio operator's keys were physically removed from the radio rooms.


Outbreak of the war was only a matter of hours. On December 7, the Japanese ambassy received the instruction to hand over a declaration of war on 13:00 Washington time to the state department. Leading officers who intercepted the message had little doubt that Pearl Harbor would be the target.


The message did not contain a formal declaration of war. What it really said was that Japan was breaking off negotiations.

Also, in regards to the bolded, where's the proof, such as written statements by those unnamed officers to that effect? How were they able to divine that the Japanese would be crazy enough to send a major portion of their fleet three thousand miles across the Pacific to strike the U.S. fleet in its home port?


When Marshall returned and read the msg he wrote a very general phrased warning to general Short. He used a commercial RCA radio connection rather than military lines. Every sense of urgency was ommited. The result was that the ‘warning’ reached Hawaii 7 hours after the attack. We can assume that the delay was deliberate.


You can foolishly leap to the conclusion the delay was deliberate. Rational minds examining the actual evidence come to a different conclusion.

The Navy offered to the Army the use of its radio network, but interservice rivalry being what it was, the offer was declined and the Army's radio network would be used. Unfortunately, such long-range radio transmissions were subject to the vagaries of the weather, and on that day the atmospherics were causing much static. Which is why the message was then passed to a civilian commerical outfit since they had far more powerful transmitters.


On 7:55 AM, 350 planes attacked in 2 waves. The surprise was complete. 2400 people killed. The oil storage was not destroyed.


The bolded, along with the storage facilities, drydocks, submarine pens, and machine shops weren't attacked either. But they easily could have been, which would have made the raid far more devastating, as it would have essentially eliminated Pearl Harbor as a functioning naval base.

That they weren't attacked is mostly due to Nagumo's cautiousness in not wanting to risk a third strike, even though many of his subordinates recommended such a strike. It also partly due to the Japanese military culture viewing such logistical targets as not being worthy of the effort. (The IJN's submarines, for example, were never sent after Allied merchant shipping in the Pacific. Warships were considered the proper target for a warrior, not a lowly supply ship.)


No carrier was destroyed and proved to be the most potent weapon of the Pacific war.


It is only luck that the Enterprise was not there. It should have been in port that Sunday morning, but refuelling delays with its escorting destroyers caused it to be late. As it was, a number of the carrier's dive bombers arrived during the latter part of the attack and several were shot down, either by Japanese fighters or U.S. anti-aircraft fire.


Roosevelt decided to leave the declaration of war to the Germans (December 11, 1941).


The terms of the Tripartite Pact only required the signatories to declare war should one of the member be attacked first by another nation. Since it was Japan which had struck the first blow, Germany was not actually obligated to declare war on the United States. Yet it did so anyway. How do you explain that? Germany chose to be at war with the U.S. even though it didn't have to.
 
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You'll notice "somebody" has pointed out the Germans declared war on the US first. If the "Just let it happen" boys had been in charge like he claims, there would have been a declaration of war on the whole Axis at that point. We were about 60 to 90 days away from a declaration anyway, one which the majority of American would probably have supported according to the Gallup numbers.
 
The Jewish Component

Maybe I should try to join the illuminati. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, I say.

I needed only a few hours to learn about the truth concerning PH.

That's because you're unaware that you DIDN'T learn the truth. Finding a lie and sticking to it is easy, 9/11, but admitting that you're wrong to your opponents n a thread like this and changing your world view is hard. To you, it seems impossible.
 
The message did not contain a formal declaration of war. What it really said was that Japan was breaking off negotiations.

A quick Google gives the text at http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/Dip/Fourteen.html, and it's very clearly not a declaration of war in any sense; it doesn't even constitute a formal breaking off of diplomatic relations. It's notable for the fact that it says nothing whatsoever about future Japanese intentions.

Dave
 
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