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What about this crop circle?

Barring unforeseen circumstances, tomorrow I am going to join a group to visit a crop circle! I will faithfully report any mysterious vibrations, telepathic messages from aliens or misty shapes drifting around.
I'll look forward to reading about your experience Susan. :)
 
This is impressive shepherding.
The crop circles pales a bit next to a Mona Lisa in sheep. :D


(I were at sea and could not download at the time.)

I wonder which Jungian archetype was operating through the shepherds.
 
It was an enjoyable day - more later. However, there was one spooky happening...when I turned on the computer yesterday evening, the voice was doing the hiccuping (which it sometimes does when anti0virus updates are loading) so I waited a bit, but it still did it. So I turned off Supernova and put down a few thoughts (on an e-mail blank). Then when I put Supernova back on, the voice had changed to 'US English Adult Male voice' and I couldn't change it!!!

Obviously, because I'd accidentally pressed some odd combination of keys or something, but you can't help wondering whether it was aliens trying to tell me not to be so sceptical or something.:D:D

Anyway, I'll have to phone Dolphin Tech Support this morning to get them to takeover my computer and straighten that out.
 
So, for a reasonable minded person, it is not necessary to debunk every example of crop circles to accept the conclusion that they were made by humans.

People who infer universal truths from their subjective experience generally find it reasonable of themselves to do so. Nevertheless the inference is entirely fallacious (technically an example of the "a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter" fallacy).

Call me unreasonable (and I'll take it as a compliment), but I wouldn't be surprised to find a crop circle whose creation method can't be explained by any form of engineering that we have. My reason for saying this is as follows: if the universe is infinite, it is infinitely possible that infinite phenomena exist in it. It is therefore infinitely possible that aliens are running around making crop circles along with humans.

Please note that I do NOT say probable.
 
Duly noted.

Joe can speak for himself of course, but I inferred that he meant that taking the view that crop circles generally are not made by humans was unreasonable, rather than that it was physically impossible for any other cause ever to exist.

I don't think folk here reject the possibility that aliens (or any other cause) might create a crop circle using methods beyond our current understanding. They merely note that no worthwhile evidence exists to suggest this has ever happened.
 
People who infer universal truths from their subjective experience generally find it reasonable of themselves to do so. Nevertheless the inference is entirely fallacious (technically an example of the "a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter" fallacy).

Call me unreasonable (and I'll take it as a compliment), but I wouldn't be surprised to find a crop circle whose creation method can't be explained by any form of engineering that we have. My reason for saying this is as follows: if the universe is infinite, it is infinitely possible that infinite phenomena exist in it. It is therefore infinitely possible that aliens are running around making crop circles along with humans.

Please note that I do NOT say probable.

In other words,they are all man-made?
 
People who infer universal truths from their subjective experience generally find it reasonable of themselves to do so. Nevertheless the inference is entirely fallacious (technically an example of the "a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter" fallacy).

Call me unreasonable (and I'll take it as a compliment), but I wouldn't be surprised to find a crop circle whose creation method can't be explained by any form of engineering that we have. My reason for saying this is as follows: if the universe is infinite, it is infinitely possible that infinite phenomena exist in it. It is therefore infinitely possible that aliens are running around making crop circles along with humans.

Please note that I do NOT say probable.

Ah.
Well, call me unreasonable, but I wouldn't be surprised to find a frog with wings, whose butt doesn't bump the ground when he lands.
 
Okay, so herewith completed comments:

This is a link to a blog which has plenty of formation pictures, but I do not know if the Bray Hill one is there.
http://cropcirclereporter.wordpress.com/

I forgot to ask Olivier Morel, the leader of the small group ;(four Taiwanese who live and work in London, my daughter-in-law and I ... my son waited in the car as he is not at all interested in looking at some flattened wheat!!) for a link to the Bray Hill crop formation we saw, but have sent an e-mail to ask if he can supply one. He had a portfoloio of photostaken by himself. He has been involved for some years by the sound of it, knows the farmers and the microlight pilots etc. These last take people up for aerial views for about £50 per person. The cost to each of us for the day was £20, but that varies I think according to the programme for the day. From ground level, it is not possible to observe more than a few sections at a time of the whole pattern. It was well into a very large field with roads nearby, but not running alongside, except for the lane to reach the gate, which you'd have to know about.

It was a hot day, no wind, not even a breeze, and we walked along a track to the centre of the formation. Before leaving the cars and going into the field - where there was a 'donation box' for the farmer- Olivier was giving the background story to crop formations, in which he referred to the 'scientific' discoveries etc. This information he continued from the centre of the formation itself. The wheat (to be harveested any day now) had been neatly flattened , either in radial lines or parallel to the circumference of each circle. There are groups of smaller circles at intervals around the whole and most of these had a central group of stalks left standing.

There was another small group of visitors with a leader but otherwise it was really quiet and you'd have to listen hard to hear the traffic. In fact, we could hear a crackling sound - which was the grains popping from their outer skins we assumed. We had plenty of time to walk to as many of the areas of the shape as we liked. Some of the larger areas had part of the shape left standing which created a dark/light contrast in the aerial photo.

There was, however, absolutely nothing that was not most definitely man made! It was evident to Helen and me that, however complicated the pattern, they would be fairly straightforward for those with the practised skill and experience, along with the latest things, such as GPS, we surmise?

I had explained that I was a scepticbut did not try and spoil his stories, as he was using phrases such as 'there have been many experiments....', ' people think x and y might....' and was not being categorical. He had a charming French accent too!
It was to be a leisurely afternoon, proceeding to visit two other formations, but since from the photos we could see that this one was probably the best of the three, we opted to drop out at that point. Helen had, in fact, never walked around the Avebury stones, so we had a cup of tea at the café and then I sat on a handy stone while A and H looked at the Avebury circle.

Back to Salisbury then, and home on the train, arriving back just before 5:0 p.m. Olivier had anticipated finishing about that time, but that would have been too long.

I will probably do something similar next year, but do not anticipate any change in the 'atmosphere' in a formation. It was a most enjoyable day out. It is a commercial enterprise, I am sure. To convince me of other-worldly connections, I would have to see some overwhelming evidence of such mystery. One has to greatly admire the creative ability of the designers and equipment makers, the organisation and efficiency of the enterprise, the maintenance of secrecy by photographers, microlight pilots, publishers etc and not forgetting the farmers who are quoted as being really annoyed at having their fields messed about with, but for whom the financial compensation must make up for the relatively small percentage of crop lost by being flattened; particularly in this high-yielding year. Well, that's what I think, anyway!

I think I've covered everything. I'll add the link and a couple of photos of the day as soon as I can.

By the way, Tech Support sorted out the screen reader with a couple of clicks here and there this morning!
 
I'm glad you enjoyed your day out Susan. It's always great being in Wiltshire in the summer, whether you believe in crop circle making aliens or not. :)
And Olivier does take some stunning photos.

There was, however, absolutely nothing that was not most definitely man made! It was evident to Helen and me that, however complicated the pattern, they would be fairly straightforward for those with the practised skill and experience, along with the latest things, such as GPS, we surmise?
There is no need for GPS. :)

I will probably do something similar next year, but do not anticipate any change in the 'atmosphere' in a formation. It was a most enjoyable day out. It is a commercial enterprise, I am sure. To convince me of other-worldly connections, I would have to see some overwhelming evidence of such mystery. One has to greatly admire the creative ability of the designers and equipment makers, the organisation and efficiency of the enterprise, the maintenance of secrecy by photographers, microlight pilots, publishers etc
It's odd that you would think they these people are the secretive ones.
They are not responsible for making the circles, only exploiting them to earn a few quid every summer.

and not forgetting the farmers who are quoted as being really annoyed at having their fields messed about with, but for whom the financial compensation must make up for the relatively small percentage of crop lost by being flattened; particularly in this high-yielding year. Well, that's what I think, anyway!
The farmers are regularly annoyed and quite a few formations get cut out by angry farmers the very next morning before they are spotted and photographed, to stop the inevitable invasion of croppies that will no doubt turn up later in the day when news gets back to the crop circle circle websites of a new arrival. There are some farmers who have resigned themselves to the fact that the circles will keep on 'appearing' and as annoying as they are, 'honesty boxes' are used to recoup some losses (and mostly make more profit than the wheat would have if harvested and sold).

Maybe next year, you would enjoy joining the croppies on Knap Hill for a field watch, where they sit up all night watching the vast fields below for signs of aliens making formations. It is a very special area and the military bases around regularly have night exercises which allow the believers to believe they are seeing UFO's as the parachute flares drop in the distance.

:)
 
http://wemustknow.net/2010/05/crop-circle-plants-investigated-by-biophysicist-w-c-levengood/

Here's an interesting site that shows the work of W. C. Levengood, Michigan-based biophysicist, on the crop cirlce anomalies.

He doesn't really say what causes them, as far as I could tell, he just shows the results of his investigations.

I've always wondered why more people haven't come forward to claim ownership. You either have one big consolidated group or a bunch of independent agents doing this. In either event, you need a lot of people doing it to account for all of the circles, so the odds of more people not stepping forward don't compute. That’s one of the arguments of why 911 wasn’t a conspiracy because the odds of no one coming forth is almost nil.

One of the major debunking points against True Believers is that the more people involved, the more it likely it is someone will step forward and confess.

Also, some of those things are so big and complex, I'm surprised that they can do it in one night. Has anyone ever calculated how many people it would take to make a big, complex one in approx. 8-10 hrs. of dark? The biggest one is:

"Longest crop formation: This occurred at Etchilhampton, Wiltshire, in 1996 - a chain of circles and pathways approximately 4100 feet long crossed from one end of a field to another.

Largest design and most circles in one formation: The record for both these qualities is currently held by the huge motif at Milk Hill, Wiltshire, August 12th 2001 - 409 small circles made up a staggering six-armed design of around 800 feet diameter."

How many guys working in unison would it take to make ones this size in 8-10 hrs.?
 
How many guys working in unison would it take to make ones this size in 8-10 hrs.?

Why do you assume they were made in 8-10 hours? Or in the dark? For example, this one took four people working for two days. While it may be common for crop circles to be made by people sneaking into fields at night, by no means all involve either sneaking or night, and there's no reason for any of them to be restricted to a single continuous period of work.

I've always wondered why more people haven't come forward to claim ownership. You either have one big consolidated group or a bunch of independent agents doing this. In either event, you need a lot of people doing it to account for all of the circles, so the odds of more people not stepping forward don't compute. That’s one of the arguments of why 911 wasn’t a conspiracy because the odds of no one coming forth is almost nil.

One of the major debunking points against True Believers is that the more people involved, the more it likely it is someone will step forward and confess.

And one of the major debunking points against crop circles being made by anything other than humans is that lots of people have stepped forward and confessed. Some even create websites and make money out of it, like the one I linked above.

Obviously not everyone involved will come forward, since many of them are engaging in illegal activity. Even those that aren't presumably enjoy the mystery that surrounds it. When it comes down to it, crop circles are graffiti. The majority of graffiti artists don't admit to it, but that doesn't mean aliens are coming to Earth to spray "Bob wos 'ere" on our inner city walls. There's plenty of evidence and admissions that graffiti is made by humans, and no evidence at all that the rest is aliens or paranormal, so we make the perfectly rational assumption that all graffiti is made by humans. Same with crop circles.
 
Why do you assume they were made in 8-10 hours? Or in the dark? For example, this one took four people working for two days. While it may be common for crop circles to be made by people sneaking into fields at night, by no means all involve either sneaking or night, and there's no reason for any of them to be restricted to a single continuous period of work.



And one of the major debunking points against crop circles being made by anything other than humans is that lots of people have stepped forward and confessed. Some even create websites and make money out of it, like the one I linked above.

Obviously not everyone involved will come forward, since many of them are engaging in illegal activity. Even those that aren't presumably enjoy the mystery that surrounds it. When it comes down to it, crop circles are graffiti. The majority of graffiti artists don't admit to it, but that doesn't mean aliens are coming to Earth to spray "Bob wos 'ere" on our inner city walls. There's plenty of evidence and admissions that graffiti is made by humans, and no evidence at all that the rest is aliens or paranormal, so we make the perfectly rational assumption that all graffiti is made by humans. Same with crop circles.

Exactly.I'm sure that some farmers are in on it too,I've heard of money being charged to view the circle.
 
We paid £2 each into the farmer's box. There were six of us and another similar group there, and the formation had been there for a few days at least.

The phrases (the circle appeared' and 'overnight' seem to come up regularly, immediately reinforcing the notion of mystery!

I expect most of you know about the wccsg? This link
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/WCCSG1.php?p=1
is a page I was reading earlier today.

Seems to me too that as soon as all the facts about who, how and when are known, the whole industry would collapse. On the other hand, I suppose it is so entrenched now, that there would be more than enough people still rejecting the man-made answer.
 
http://wemustknow.net/2010/05/crop-circle-plants-investigated-by-biophysicist-w-c-levengood/

Here's an interesting site that shows the work of W. C. Levengood, Michigan-based biophysicist, on the crop cirlce anomalies.

He doesn't really say what causes them, as far as I could tell, he just shows the results of his investigations.
He does offer a potential cause... it's just a shame there is no evidence to back it up. He claims a so far unknown plasma causes the effects he (incorrectly) identifies.

I've always wondered why more people haven't come forward to claim ownership. You either have one big consolidated group or a bunch of independent agents doing this. In either event, you need a lot of people doing it to account for all of the circles, so the odds of more people not stepping forward don't compute. That’s one of the arguments of why 911 wasn’t a conspiracy because the odds of no one coming forth is almost nil.
http://www.ufologie.net/htm/croprec.htm


One of the major debunking points against True Believers is that the more people involved, the more it likely it is someone will step forward and confess.
There is really no incentive to come forward and confess. There is every reason to keep calm and carry on.

Also, some of those things are so big and complex, I'm surprised that they can do it in one night.
This year's Eastflied botch up took three nights (the circlemakers were caught in the act on two night running!), last year, this one:
Crop-circle-Milk-Hill-2009.jpg

Similarly took three nights to complete.

Then one of the most famous crop circles in crop circle mythology, the ALien face and coded disc at Crabwood:
crabwood2002saa.jpg

Also took three nights... these facts are not often reported by the bleever websites that want to promote alternative theories and mysteries.

Has anyone ever calculated how many people it would take to make a big, complex one in approx. 8-10 hrs. of dark?
During the mid summer, there is only at most four and a half hours of workable darkness. In a perfect world, a design will be done and a team assembled which enable that design to be completed within the time frame available. By the time there is 8 to 10 hours of darkness, there are no more crops left, they have all been harvested.


The biggest one is:

"Longest crop formation: This occurred at Etchilhampton, Wiltshire, in 1996 - a chain of circles and pathways approximately 4100 feet long crossed from one end of a field to another.

Largest design and most circles in one formation: The record for both these qualities is currently held by the huge motif at Milk Hill, Wiltshire, August 12th 2001 - 409 small circles made up a staggering six-armed design of around 800 feet diameter."
Actually, this is not the biggest anymore. There was one last year that had more circles and of course the absolutely massive (dwarfing the Milk Hill Galaxy): Butterfly Man circle made by XL-D-sign put's all previous records to shame.

NetherlandsButterflyMetamorphosisTr.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0BTnZS0XYk&feature=related

How many guys working in unison would it take to make ones this size in 8-10 hrs.?
Work it out yourself, how long does it take you to walk round in a circle?
 
Exactly.I'm sure that some farmers are in on it too,I've heard of money being charged to view the circle.
The farmers are only "in on it" when the formation is commissioned by a client and then the farmer will be approached beforehand, an agreement made and the field is 'bought' for use by the circlemakers with full permission of the farmer and compensation for damaged crop paid in advance.
Usually in these cases, if prior knowledge of a man made formation is widely spread, no one will visit it and therefore the concept of charging to see it is pointless. In all other cases, the farmer is not aware or "in on it", they are just making the best of a bad situation... and why not?
 
The farmers are only "in on it" when the formation is commissioned by a client and then the farmer will be approached beforehand, an agreement made and the field is 'bought' for use by the circlemakers with full permission of the farmer and compensation for damaged crop paid in advance.
Usually in these cases, if prior knowledge of a man made formation is widely spread, no one will visit it and therefore the concept of charging to see it is pointless. In all other cases, the farmer is not aware or "in on it", they are just making the best of a bad situation... and why not?
You obviously have a great deal of knowledge about this subject and I would be most interested to know how you are certain about the farmers' point of view!:) Do you have your own blog or web site or something on the subject? Can I join, please

?
 
The farmers are only "in on it" when the formation is commissioned by a client and then the farmer will be approached beforehand, an agreement made and the field is 'bought' for use by the circlemakers with full permission of the farmer and compensation for damaged crop paid in advance.
Usually in these cases, if prior knowledge of a man made formation is widely spread, no one will visit it and therefore the concept of charging to see it is pointless. In all other cases, the farmer is not aware or "in on it", they are just making the best of a bad situation... and why not?

I don't blame the farmers,as you say,why not? I would pay a small fee to see a good crop circle,it's a form of performance art.
 
You obviously have a great deal of knowledge about this subject and I would be most interested to know how you are certain about the farmers' point of view!:) Do you have your own blog or web site or something on the subject? Can I join, please

?

No sadly (or thankfully) I don't have my own crop circle related website, I tend to keep a low profile within the small community. I do have a presence online as a circle sceptic of course and by use of a certain level of anonymity, I get close to all the 'big players' and events. If farmers were in collusion with circlemakers I would know about it and despite the seemingly annual accusations of this happening, no one has provided any verification or evidence to support it. :)

There is however quite a lot of evidence to support that a lot of farmers are mighty fed up with the arrival of formations in their fields and the imminent arrival of tour busses full of people. These farmers usually supply websites like Crop Circle Connector with notices for people to stay out of the field. Some farmers cut out the formations at the first opportunity in order to stop the tourists.
 

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