Republicans Push To Revise 14th Amendment

The issue with me is still the potential for automatic long term residency by those who broke the law to get here in the first place. Perhaps I'm being a stubborn hardass on this issue (ya think?), but it bothers me.

Then perhaps the answer might be a law stating that if your parents were in the U.S. illegally at the time of your birth you would not be allowed to sponsor them for a visa. This way there would be a punishment for the parents (no U.S. visa) and no punishment for the child (keeps U.S. citizenship).

I still think the whole thing is a non-issue. Since the child can't sponsor the parents until he or she is 21 there is no short-term gain for the parents.
 
I still think the whole thing is a non-issue. Since the child can't sponsor the parents until he or she is 21 there is no short-term gain for the parents.
That and residing in the US illegally for a year or more adds an additional 10 year wait time once the sponsorship process begins. This means that parents of US children that did not break the law are treated more favorably than parents of US children that did break the law. That seems perfectly fair to me.
 
Arabic speaking, middle eastern, Muslims doesn't exactly blend into groups of spanish speaking, hispanic, Catholics. Except in the eyes of bigots who hate anyone who isn't english speaking, white and Protestant.

You mean like how Hollywood uses Mexicans and other hispanics in movies when they need a bunch of extras who look Mid-Eastern? I mean, maybe it's not that rampant, but I've heard more than one actor complain about that when looking for work.

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I understand that. But I thought the debate in the thread was to discuss the proposed changes to the 14th amendment to the Constitution. Forgive me for thinking that the thread would go farther than "see what those evil dumbass republicans are doing to are sacred Constitution".

That Constitution that had to be amended a couple of dozen + times already, by the way.

But only now, it seems that because those evil dumbass republicans are floating the idea, it is trying to bust the Constitution.

Actually, what you seem to be missing is that the proposal to alter the Constitution in this case is stupid, but not because of any pretense of it being a sacred document. If anything, your hyperbole in that manner just comes across as another lame red herring to excuse the real problem with this proposal: the Constitution is built on establishing and defining rights for citizens, and even were we to ignore the failure that was prohibition the danger to adding any more restrictions to rights is not only a bad precedent it's a step down a road that this country fought against in its inception. If the Constitution places limits on anything it is on government, and the one time when our government tried to use the Constitution differently can be pretty universally considered an abject failure that should not have been tried.

The anti-gay-marriage proposed amendment wasn't stupid because it banned gays from marrying. It was wrong for being anti-gay, but it was stupid because it sets a fascist precedent. This proposal to amend the 14th doesn't go quite as far as the anti-gay-marriage proposal, but it still remains well within the realm of stupid because it's suggesting that we take away a (birth)right that has been established in order to use it as a weapon against a problem that is different in nature, cause, and danger.

Despite what you may believe, Region Rat, this proposal is definitely incredibly stupid in its own right and arguing that the Constitution has seen amendments before doesn't really lend any justification when the nature of the amendments that got through (all but one) don't resemble the nature of this proposal one bit.
 
Then perhaps the answer might be a law stating that if your parents were in the U.S. illegally at the time of your birth you would not be allowed to sponsor them for a visa. This way there would be a punishment for the parents (no U.S. visa) and no punishment for the child (keeps U.S. citizenship).

I still think the whole thing is a non-issue. Since the child can't sponsor the parents until he or she is 21 there is no short-term gain for the parents.

But... but... anchor babies!!!1!!eleventyone!
 
Actually, what you seem to be missing is that the proposal to alter the Constitution in this case is stupid, but not because of any pretense of it being a sacred document. If anything, your hyperbole in that manner just comes across as another lame red herring to excuse the real problem with this proposal: the Constitution is built on establishing and defining rights for citizens, and even were we to ignore the failure that was prohibition the danger to adding any more restrictions to rights is not only a bad precedent it's a step down a road that this country fought against in its inception. If the Constitution places limits on anything it is on government, and the one time when our government tried to use the Constitution differently can be pretty universally considered an abject failure that should not have been tried.

The anti-gay-marriage proposed amendment wasn't stupid because it banned gays from marrying. It was wrong for being anti-gay, but it was stupid because it sets a fascist precedent. This proposal to amend the 14th doesn't go quite as far as the anti-gay-marriage proposal, but it still remains well within the realm of stupid because it's suggesting that we take away a (birth)right that has been established in order to use it as a weapon against a problem that is different in nature, cause, and danger.

Despite what you may believe, Region Rat, this proposal is definitely incredibly stupid in its own right and arguing that the Constitution has seen amendments before doesn't really lend any justification when the nature of the amendments that got through (all but one) don't resemble the nature of this proposal one bit.

You know what? This argument makes sense to me, and in my stubbornness I actually had not considered the amendments adding rather than subtracting. Too long out of HS civics class, I guess. I stand corrected on this matter.

However, even thought the amendment route regarding citizenship is not the road to follow, I still feel strongly about repercussions for not following the law as it stands. That, as I have been told, is a subject for a different thread.
 
True, but our system of laws does not punish a child for crimes his or her parents committ. The baby in question has broken no law or committed any offence to warrent have citizenship revoked.

As Region Rat pointed out, the child is not stateless. So what's the punishment? Deportation back to the home country? Is that a punishment? If so, isn't the converse (being allowed to stay in the U.S.) a reward?

Edit: Looks like RR already addressed it.
 
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As Region Rat pointed out, the child is not stateless. So what's the punishment? Deportation back to the home country? Is that a punishment? If so, isn't the converse (being allowed to stay in the U.S.) a reward?

How do you know the child would not be stateless? Not every nation grants citizenship based on the parent's place of birth. I was born in the United States, my father was born in Ireland. Am I Irish? No.

Yes, see above, deportation is a punishment. If you want to consider U.S. citizenship based on birth a reward, fine. The baby in question is just as entitled to that "reward" as is any other child born in the U.S.
 
Both legal and illegal immigrants have very limited public resources available to them. This has been true since the Clinton era welfare reform.

Furthermore, it's not entirely clear that either legal or illegal immigrants are greater users of the public resources that are available to them, especially in proportion to native users.

You have two arguments here. One is welfare, which isn't as strong as you seem to think. The other is protection from social upheaval. Yet, it's always curious that it's the new immigrants who are creating a problem. Interestingly, the evidence that the most recent wave of immigrants, legal and illegal, from Mexico and other Latin American countries are causing much upheaval at all. Crime rates in the last twenty years have fallen. Some of the safest cities in the US are along the Southern border with high immigrant populations. The trouble doesn't seem to originate from the immigrants, but from native distaste for immigrants.




Now you're arguing for protectionism. Current immigration law tries to do this. But it fails miserably, possibly because the government does a pretty poor job of determining what the labor market needs. There is a better way. And in it's own odd way, it already works. Illegal immigration already regulates itself. It exists because there is a market for the labor. As the market shrinks (or expands), so does the labor pool. This takes place without any government supervision, yet it somehow seems to regulate itself. Why? Because immigrants, regardless of legal status, are not willing to relocate here unless they can improve their lot. The idea that the US would suddenly have millions of newcomers sitting around with nothing to do is a popular perception, but has no rational basis.

The easiest way to deal with this is to liberalize immigration so that potential residents can come, and leave, without any significant trouble. This makes the border more secure, because there is no incentive to cross anywhere but an official crossing point. Border patrol no longer wastes resources chasing aspiring gardeners and nannies. Instead, people crossing the border illegally in remote places can more easily be assumed to be up to no good.

The idea that so-called anchor babies is a problem is one of nativist perception. I've always been curious about the value of citizenship. Natives seem to think it's something so valuable, it should be rationed. Yet, I have a feeling if somehow, everyone secretly had their citizenship revoked tomorrow, half the people would never know any different. Citizenship offers few real privileges for most folks, and a few annoying obligations. It seems mostly a source of pride, a sense that new immigrants must show sufficient deference to America before we allow access to the club. Even if deeply rooted natives can be as dismissive, even hateful, of America and it's traditions as they want. Hey, it's a free country, after all.

Right?

They can't use public roads? Public hospitals are closed to them? Their kids can't enroll in public school? They don't end up in state prisons? Public defenders refuse to represent them?

Illegal immigration costs the taxpayers of California -- which has the highest number of illegal aliens nationwide -- $10.5 billion a year for education, health care and incarceration, according to a study released yesterday.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/dec/06/20041206-102115-6766r/
 
The Republican party has become synonymous with bigotry, xenophobia, and ignorance in the last couple of decades. It has become the refuge of the fearful, the hateful, and the intolerant. Unfortunately, the Republican party is now to me a poisonous subset of the US population, one that I am embarrassed by, frightened of, and suspicious of.

I have been a life-long Democrat, and resent deeply the Republican supporters and their causes. I find them to be a stain on society, and a low water mark in my nation's history.

I agree with what you say, as a lifelong labor democrat. However, I have to point out that they are the loyal opposition to ourselves, just as we are to them, and that without them we'd have a tolitarian state, most likely, just as they would. We need them for balance, and while I would like to see them be somewhat more reasonable about it, we still have to live with them.
 
How do you know the child would not be stateless? Not every nation grants citizenship based on the parent's place of birth. I was born in the United States, my father was born in Ireland. Am I Irish? No.

Yes, see above, deportation is a punishment. If you want to consider U.S. citizenship based on birth a reward, fine. The baby in question is just as entitled to that "reward" as is any other child born in the U.S.

Deportation wouldn't be a punishment if the 14th amendment were revised, because there would be no automatic benefit from simply being born here. The parents (and child) would have to legally apply for citizenship.

If the child ends up stateless, whose fault is that? The parents! When you come into a country illegally, and have a child, you take your chances.

In Britain, you don't become a citizen by birth unless one parent is also a British citizen (or "settled"). It's been than way since 1983. Strangely, though, if a kid can avoid British ICE until age 10, they're granted citizenship.
 
Republicans are going about this stupidly (the nation isn't behind screwing around with the consitution), but the politics behind this are squarely on their side:

50+% of people favor Arizon's new law.
60% Dissaprove of Obama's handling of the issue.
Majority of Americans view illegal immigration as a "very serious" problem
70% favor a federal ID card for legal immigrants and citizens to show employers.
http://pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

They'll stick to the tried-and-true enforce the borders rhetoric.
 
How do you know the child would not be stateless? Not every nation grants citizenship based on the parent's place of birth. I was born in the United States, my father was born in Ireland. Am I Irish? No.
My granddaughter was born in the USA of a native born American mother. Her father is native born Northern Ireland. She automatically starts life with a dual citizenship.
 
I prefer the born under jurisdiction set up of US citizenship determination. I wish other nations would do the same.
This raises the question of how other nations do, in fact, define citizenship. I heard on the radio yesterday the assertion that the USA is the only western, developed nation that grants automatic citizenship based on birth location. Is that right? How does one become a citizen of the UK? France? Germany? Canada? Mexico?

IOW, if we want to amend the 14th, what other models are there and how do they work in real world practice?
 
This raises the question of how other nations do, in fact, define citizenship. I heard on the radio yesterday the assertion that the USA is the only western, developed nation that grants automatic citizenship based on birth location. Is that right? How does one become a citizen of the UK? France? Germany? Canada? Mexico?

IOW, if we want to amend the 14th, what other models are there and how do they work in real world practice?

Starship Troopers had an interesting model.
 
the purpose of the citizenship section of the 14th Amendment, was to insure former slaves citizenship.

and the framers of the Amendment didn't put that exact clause in the 14th I wonder why?

Oh wait, because they knew the birthright citizenship is a fundamental right to anyone born on US Soil, slaves or not.
 
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Considering how rare and unlikely it is for a person who resided in the US illegally to gain citizenship or even a stay of deportation because of a US citizen child, I think perhaps you are just being stubborn.

Can you name a single case in arizona where an anchor baby's parents were deported? Not put on a deportation list, but deported.
 
A lot of people believe that civilization was developed and survives on its laws and the enforcement of those laws. They feel that if a child of illegal immigrants is allowed to be a citizen, it is a reward for breaking those laws.

True, but our system of laws does not punish a child for crimes his or her parents committ. The baby in question has broken no law or committed any offence to warrent have citizenship revoked.


We also don't believe in rewarding a child for crimes committed by his parents either.

If a man commits a robbery, and gives the loot that he thus stole to his child, do we let the child keep it?
 
So I'm seeing several argumetns.

1. ANCHOR BABIES !11!!!1111!
[Can you name a single case in arizona where an anchor baby's parents were deported? Not put on a deportation list, but deported.]

Uhm.. no. But hey, I have stats.
such benefits do not exist except in the very rare case of extreme and profound hardship on the child. Approximately 88,000 legal immigrant parents of US citizen children have been deported in the past ten years for what it described as "minor criminal convictions" now classified as aggravated felonies, including nonviolent drug offenses, simple assaults and drunk driving.[14] Federal appellate courts and the Supreme Court have upheld the refusal by the Immigration and Naturalization Service or Immigration and Customs Enforcement to stay the deportation of illegal immigrants merely on the grounds that they have U.S.-citizen, minor children.[1

2. Illegal immigrants are costing us money.

Illegal immigration costs the taxpayers of California -- which has the highest number of illegal aliens nationwide -- $10.5 billion a year for education, health care and incarceration, according to a study released yesterday.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-102115-6766r/

(incidentally, yes, they can use public resources. They're public.)

Wurr.
n August, a similar study by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, said U.S. households headed by illegal aliens used $26.3 billion in government services during 2002, but paid $16 billion in taxes, an annual cost to taxpayers of $10 billion.

Wait. How does 1 state a... oh, wait, it's done by people who are..

FAIR seeks to improve border security, to stop illegal immigration, and to promote immigration levels consistent with the national interest—more traditional rates of about 300,000 a year.
friends of the Arizona law.

Biased source GET.

3. The majority support this:
Republicans are going about this stupidly (the nation isn't behind screwing around with the consitution), but the politics behind this are squarely on their side:

50+% of people favor Arizon's new law.
60% Dissaprove of Obama's handling of the issue.
Majority of Americans view illegal immigration as a "very serious" problem
70% favor a federal ID card for legal immigrants and citizens to show employers.
http://pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

They'll stick to the tried-and-true enforce the borders rhetoric

Hm. What's this about argument to the bandwagon?
 
We also don't believe in rewarding a child for crimes committed by his parents either.

If a man commits a robbery, and gives the loot that he thus stole to his child, do we let the child keep it?

.. I'm not sure comparing place of birth to a robbery is at all appropriate. On top of that, you are conveniently forgetting it'd also punish the child if we don't reward the child, implying there is a middle option when there.. isn't.
 

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