Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[Hallo Alfie]

Yep, although they would be encouraged to put it down.

Tradition Three:
"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking" (i.e. they don't actually have to have stopped)

 

[marplots]

I'd have to guess that some fraction of the people in any church aren't believers. They come because their mother makes them, or their spouse likes it, or maybe they think it's necessary to appear religious in the community.

Might be the same for atheists in AA I guess.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Or it might be much simpler.
A principle which allows them to be true to themselves and their beliefs - any God, Higher Power, Power greater than themselves is OPTIONAL.

 

[Belz...]

Sure, the fellowship or the group of AA; the people. Worked great for me.

Then I submit, based on my own second-hand experience, that yours was an atypical group, and that you are generalizing based on one data point.

But once again incorrectly, you are suggesting that AA members have no choice. That it just patently wrong.

Personally, if I were a drinker, the only power I can depend on to stop would be ME. Nobody else can make me stop. They can help me, but that's it. The idea of the 12-step program and the concept of the required higher power is ridiculous. That AA says this is obligatory for recovery is a lie.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Then I submit, based on my own second-hand experience, that yours was an atypical group, and that you are generalizing based on one data point.

Nope, I know hundreds and hundreds of people and have been to hundreds of groups, this isn't isolated in Australia, nor elsewhere in the world. That said, I acknowledge that the God botherers in the states may have a different take and like to push this down the throat of others.
In other counries of the world, religion is not the huge polarising deal it is in the states.

Personally, if I were a drinker, the only power I can depend on to stop would be ME. Nobody else can make me stop. They can help me, but that's it. The idea of the 12-step program and the concept of the required higher power is ridiculous. That AA says this is obligatory for recovery is a lie.

They don't say it is obligatory - it is "suggested" (page 59 of the big book).
A Higher power is suggested, prayer is suggested, so is meditation, making amends, taking a good look at yourself, and living an honest life, and others - they are all "suggested". Do it, don't do it, the choice is yours: Just dont drink and your life will get better.

And again, tradition three says:
"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking"

No God in there, no religion, no spirituality, no sobriety required either, nothing is obligatory; just a desire to stop.

Cheers.

 

[Belz...]

Nope, I know hundreds and hundreds of people and have been to hundreds of groups, this isn't isolated in Australia, nor elsewhere in the world.

That's a lot of people. I assume you all asked them if divinity was an issue at their AA meetings ?

They don't say it is obligatory - it is "suggested" (page 59 of the big book).

Suggestions are usually mandatory in religious circles.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

To be fair to AAAlfie, it's true that some non-theist AA members are able to get past the whole "Higher Power"/God trip.

My bone of contention with AAAlfie is that he continues to deny that the 12 Steps are basically religious tenets (and that the "suggestion" thing is BS), and that AA is basically a religious organization that wields an inordinate amount of power in the Health and Judicial sector, and has influenced the language and framed the debate surrounding the Drug War.

GB

 

[ArchieGoodwin]

Then I submit, based on my own second-hand experience, that yours was an atypical group, and that you are generalizing based on one data point.

There have been a few of us that have had the same experience. Possible of course that we were all at an atypical group.

Personally, if I were a drinker, the only power I can depend on to stop would be ME. Nobody else can make me stop. They can help me, but that's it. The idea of the 12-step program and the concept of the required higher power is ridiculous. That AA says this is obligatory for recovery is a lie.

This is partly why there is AA and other self-help groups. We could be talking about anything.

Personally, if I was a fat guy, I could just eat less....

Personally, if I was dyslexic, I could just focus better...

Personally, if I was a kleptomaniac, I could just steal less...

Anytime someone says, "well I'm not one, but if I was, I would just do this, it's easy..." I quit paying attention.

 

[Malerin]

Excuse me AA alfie, you are being a ----. there is no data to support the disease model of alcoholism, for the two reasopns I stated, it does not meet any defintion of disease.
(There are alcoholics who are not biologically predisposed, there are alcoholics that do not have withdrawal symptoms.)

So define disease and see how it matches. No one told you to grind an ax, you did that on your own.

That is not the issue, many people can be comfortable with many things, and they still are incorrect. So define disease and how that disease is different from a mental disorder (your own words) and then show how alcoholism is a disease, not a mental disorder.

Then stop bragging on how important you are, that is what makes you such a braggart and your words as empty as any preacher.


You are a ----, where did I pull down AA ? AA Alfie, maybe you should go chill out and come back and read for comprehension.

I have done my time, my work history is explained many places on this Forum. (I just happen to chose to work in schools now.)

Why don't you care about 13 million children dying from preventable causes every years?
What are you doing about it?
Why don't you care about domestic violence and the people whose lives are ruined by it every year?
What are you doing about it?
Why don't care about insert cause and problem here?
What are you doing about it?

You have drifted far from the topic AA Alfie and you have mistaken your ego for the discussion.

So the AMA classifies it as a disease because....

 

[R.A.F.]

A principle which allows them to be true to themselves and their beliefs...

So being instructed to "fake it till ya make it" (in other words to lie to yourself) is an example of being "true to themselves and their beliefs"??

...and please don't sidestep the question by saying that's not how they do it where you're from as that would be irrelevant...that's the way "they" do AA here.

...any God, Higher Power, Power greater than themselves is OPTIONAL.

Then why even mention it in the "book" unless it's supposed to be followed?

From reading this entire thread, it appears that you will say anything in order to "protect" AA from what you consider to be an "attack". It's not really an attack, you know, it's simply a statement of what AA "is"...a religious organization.

 

[Malerin]

So being instructed to "fake it till ya make it" (in other words to lie to yourself) is an example of being "true to themselves and their beliefs"??

...and please don't sidestep the question by saying that's not how they do it where you're from as that would be irrelevant...that's the way "they" do AA here.



Then why even mention it in the "book" unless it's supposed to be followed?

From reading this entire thread, it appears that you will say anything in order to "protect" AA from what you consider to be an "attack". It's not really an attack, you know, it's simply a statement of what AA "is"...a religious organization.

Specifically, which religion?

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

Specifically, Christianity, and a Protestant version at that. All you have to do is google the Official AA website from which I and others have posted their own words. Check out the History of AA at Wikipedia if you don't already know it (as I and others do).

Though attempts have been made to Universalize and Secularize AA by local chapters, the essence of the program continues to be a religious support group (which is fine as far as that goes), and the 12 Steps, which even with sanitized language are religious tenets.

There are actually other recovery programs for non-theists with NO connection to AA at all, and no 12 Steps. Rational Recovery is one such program.

GB

 

[Dancing David]

So the AMA classifies it as a disease because....

Before I respond:

Data, evidence and citations?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Suggestions are usually mandatory in religious circles.

Hilarious. The efforts some will go to.....
I'm going to say this loud and clear this time, as you seem to have not heard so far..

Tradition three says:

THE ONLY REQUIREMENT FOR MEMBERSHIP IS A DESIRE TO STOP DRINKING

So being instructed to "fake it till ya make it" (in other words to lie to yourself) is an example of being "true to themselves and their beliefs"??

Fake it till you make it. I have heard that often and used it from time to time myself. It is not used simply about a higher power - sometimes it is about loving yourself or others, sometimes it is about enjoying being sober (which can be really hard early on), sometimes about attitudes and thoughts that we can't let go. In other words it can be a lot of things.
On the HP example though, for some who are struggling to find their HP, faking it till you make it might be a good idea. Personally this tends to be a one-size-fits-all approach and ultimately a bit too simplistic especially for the non theist.
Spiritualiity, religion and ones HP are very very personal things. Exploration in this area is best done with a sponsor and the people who know you best.

...and please don't sidestep the question by saying that's not how they do it where you're from as that would be irrelevant...that's the way "they" do AA here.

Not a sidestep but a statement of fact. Curiously earlier on I was called on not knowing how it worked in the states. I really can't win here.

Then why even mention it in the "book" unless it's supposed to be followed?

This has been explained a number of times. The big book was one mans journey. His experience strength and hope. He just happened to be a founder. He has never said he has the first and last word on recovery and as such his story is one example.
The steps and traditions are the 'rules' for AA, not the big book story of Bill W.

Before I respond:

Data, evidence and citations?

Their 'judgement' was posted by me some pages ago.
So was WHO's attitude, and the APA assessment that AA is not religious.

These were provided and rejected (by some) on the basis of.... er, nothing but personal opinion from what I recall.


In the meantime, I have been waiting ages for information and statistics on other forms of recovery that I might be able to direct the suffering to.

Luckily I had lots of popcorn.

 

[Malerin]

Before I respond:

Data, evidence and citations?

That the AMA considers alcoholism a disease? You seriously need a citation on this?

 

[Dancing David]

That the AMA considers alcoholism a disease? You seriously need a citation on this?

Context is king. "Classification of Diseases", probably has a long prolouge and description of what the usage is.

And then there is the dual nature of the classification.

AA Alfie provided his reasons for calling it a disease rather than a mental disorder, which was the fallacy I was responding too.

So I again ask because it also depends upon how you define the term disease, in the DSM-V and in the ICD 9/10 (used by WHO) it is characterized by the behavioral components and I can demonstrate that, it is a behavioral disorder under both those systems and not generally considered a 'disease' in the common sense.

So now you sling out the AMA, so how and why do they classify it the way that they do?

Or are you just using argument from authority?

 

[marplots]

Context is king. "Classification of Diseases", probably has a long prolouge and description of what the usage is.

And then there is the dual nature of the classification.

(snip)

So now you sling out the AMA, so how and why do they classify it the way that they do?

In the U.S. at least, the classification has political and economic ramifications that extend past any scientific rigor. If you get something properly classified, you can then get insurance companies to pay for it and a whole slew of funding becomes available.

Behavioral 'syndromes' get moved the other way as well. Homosexuality was once considered a treatable aberration and now isn't. From my reading, the proper term is disorder, rather than disease. I don't think this makes any material difference to AA though.

 

[Dancing David]

Maybe some people don't look for context or the history, what was it the AMA endorsed in 1991?

Something now and correctly called
International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems

ETA: Marplots, many disorders are payed for that are not diseases, which is why I asked what the context is.

The AMA first made the classification in 1950 something, then they endorsed a dual classification at some point and endored the ICD, which as above some thing that includes 'Related Health Problems', so yes people say the AMA uses the disease model, but where is teh citations and what is the current nomenclature?

 

[AlBell]

,,, so yes people say the AMA uses the disease model, but where is teh citations and what is the current nomenclature?

If you are so interested, and think it will help alcoholics overcome their personal problem, why not do the research and enlighten us?

Do you think your "skeptical" JAQing around is assisting someone with overcoming alcoholism?

 

[Dymanic]

It's not really an attack, you know, it's simply a statement of what AA "is"...a religious organization.

I don't feel any particular need to defend AA. I've done plenty of attacking myself over the years, having always found much to disagree with both in AA literature and in the things heard at meetings. I have ignored and will continue to ignore discussions related to the effectiveness of AA for two reasons. One is that I don't see any good reason to disagree with those who claim AA not to be very effective -- and if there were any good evidence to refute that, I can't imagine what it would look like, because "effectiveness" seems hard enough to even define in this context, let alone measure. The other is that it is not relevant to the subject of this thread. Ditto discussion on whether alcoholism is a "disease".

Sometimes a sort of critical mass is reached in the proportion of religious fundamentalists or recent rehab graduates active in a group. A group which includes a large number of members with roughly the same amount of time in recovery can go through weird phases. I've attended meetings in a small town that often sees a large influx of weekend bikers during parts of the year, and they can put a certain slant on things. Another is strongly influenced by a mandatory AA attendance policy at a homeless shelter down the street. For quite a number of years I regularly went into jails as an AA volunteer, and the nature of the discussions at those meetings can be quite different than on the outside. One friend of mine did an extended stay in Sri Lanka some years ago and reported a near-total absence of the mention of the word "God" at the AA meetings he attended there. My point is that first-time attendees could easily come away with a wide range of impressions about "what AA is" depending on what group they happened to stumble into and what was going on in that group at that time. Blind men and the elephant and all that.

After more than twenty years I still don't find it easy to put a finger on just exactly what AA is. It's more than a collection of literature, and it's more than a gathering of alcoholics. I find it easier to say what AA is not, and I will continue to argue that labelling it a religious organization is a gross oversimplification at best and a complete mischaracterization at worst.