Scientific Research on Crop Circles

[balrog666]

You seems to be very experienced in this area. I wonder if you can tell me about the claim by the croppies that canola cannot be bent for more than 45 degrees. Then they go on and say that crop circles are often found in canola, where the plants were bent at 90 degrees. The claim goes on by saying that even botanists can't explain it.

I am guessing this might be an "invention" ?

Ooooooooh, tell us, tell us! Why can't canola stalks be bent more than 45 degrees? Are they secretly made out of titanium or something?

Or is this just another silly notion you pulled out of your ass?

 

[The Atheist]

You seems to be very experienced in this area. I wonder if you can tell me about the claim by the croppies that canola cannot be bent for more than 45 degrees. Then they go on and say that crop circles are often found in canola, where the plants were bent at 90 degrees. The claim goes on by saying that even botanists can't explain it.

I am guessing this might be an "invention" ?

"The claim"? Don't go bothering presenting anything like evidence, just pull something out of the most convenient orifice and call it a claim.

(Hint: canola's an oil, not a plant. There is no way in the world a "croppie" would call a field of ________*, "canola".)

*look it up for yourself.

 

[The Atheist]

Or is this just another silly notion you pulled out of your ass?

Bah, that'll teach me to answer two threads at once! You beat me to it.

 

[Gravy]

You seems to be very experienced in this area. I wonder if you can tell me about the claim by the croppies that canola cannot be bent for more than 45 degrees. Then they go on and say that crop circles are often found in canola, where the plants were bent at 90 degrees. The claim goes on by saying that even botanists can't explain it.

I am guessing this might be an "invention" ?

Sigh. I've spent lots of time in rape fields. Rape is the plant that produces rapeseed, from which canola oil is extracted. Canola is a new name, introduced because of the negative associations that come with the words "rapeseed oil."

I can assure you that rape stalks can be bent at any number of degrees you wish, and I again encourage you not to put your trust in crackpots.

 

[gs21stc]

I can assure you that rape stalks can be bent at any number of degrees you wish, and I again encourage you not to put your trust in crackpots.

Thanks. I suspect that it might be a false claim, just want to make sure. I don't understand why some people think that I believe and support this claim.

 

[gs21stc]

Ooooooooh, tell us, tell us! Why can't canola stalks be bent more than 45 degrees? Are they secretly made out of titanium or something?

Or is this just another silly notion you pulled out of your ass?

That's it. I thought the James Randi forum is a friendly and enjoyable discussion forum. I do not appreciate these insults, and I will pull out from this forum.

 

[CFLarsen]

That's it. I thought the James Randi forum is a friendly and enjoyable discussion forum. I do not appreciate these insults, and I will pull out from this forum.

It is a friendly and enjoyable place. But it is also a place where supernatural claims - such as your own - are scrutinized.

If you don't like what one poster says, put him on ignore. And then, focus on the rest.

 

[arthwollipot]

It is a friendly and enjoyable place. But it is also a place where supernatural claims - such as your own - are scrutinized.

I thought it was fairly clear that gs21stc was not making these claims himself, but that he had heard that these claims were being made, and wanted to investigate further whether the claims were valid or not. This is clear from the very first sentences of the OP:

I have always thought that crop circles are all man-made. That is simply the best and easiest explanation of the crop circle phenomena. Recently, I am starting to have some doubts about the man-made hypothesis. I discovered that there are actually scientific research going on studying about crop circles which shows that not all crop circles are made via mechanical flattening. They have even published a few papers on this subject.

Later on, he stated that the evidence that skeptics had presented in this thread was sufficient to convince him that the human-made hypothesis was the most reasonable, and in fact stated outright that he no longer believed that "balls of light" or whatever were responsible for crop circles.

I thought it was a little unfair for people to heap derision on someone who was genuinely examining something that he thought had a little validity, but who was convinced by the weight of evidence and changed his mind. Isn't that what people are supposed to do?

 

[CFLarsen]

I thought it was a little unfair for people to heap derision on someone who was genuinely examining something that he thought had a little validity, but who was convinced by the weight of evidence and changed his mind. Isn't that what people are supposed to do?

Where did I heap derision on gs21stc? I pointed out that he should expect his claims to be scrutinized.

From the OP:

I have always thought that crop circles are all man-made. That is simply the best and easiest explanation of the crop circle phenomena. Recently, I am starting to have some doubts about the man-made hypothesis. I discovered that there are actually scientific research going on studying about crop circles which shows that not all crop circles are made via mechanical flattening. They have even published a few papers on this subject.

I have attached one of them in this post. The others can be accessed through:

http://www.bltresearch.com/anatomical.pdf
http://www.bltresearch.com/semi-molten.html
http://www.bltresearch.com/dispersion.html

The results presented in these papers (including the attached one) are compelling. They all suggest an electromagnetic origin for the formation of crop circles and rule out the man-made (or woman?) hypothesis at least in the crop circles they have studied.
I am aware that some people might say this is pseudoscience. If you are of the following opinion, can you please state specifically what is wrong with their methodology and exactly where they are in the papers so I can check it myself? I am really puzzled by this, and would like to get advice from someone who is very knowledgeable in this field.

That's a claim, which gs21stc found compelling.

Did you read the attached papers? Burke, Levengood and Talbot are known for their pseudo-scientific "research". They are firm UFO/cattle mutilation believers (although Haselhoff is damned careful not to write that in the paper gs21stc attached).

 

[arthwollipot]

Where did I heap derision on gs21stc? I pointed out that he should expect his claims to be scrutinized.

You didn't - other people did.

That's a claim, which gs21stc found compelling.

Yes, but it wasn't his claim. You wrote "it is also a place where supernatural claims - such as your own - are scrutinized". I was pointing out that gs21stc wasn't making that claim, he was merely stating that he found a claim made by others compelling.

And what's more, cs21stc also wrote, at other times:

P/S: I am not against the theory that closing of the footpaths affected the creation of crop circles. I am on the fence about this, and will believe it if there is stronger evidence.

That shows that a natural explanation of the crop circles is unlikely. This indicates that an intelligence is involved

(Leaving off the "aliens or not" appendage... )

This indicates that gs21stc had a genuinely open mind - that he was critically examining claims that on the surface looked plausible. And some people (not mentioning any names) were heaping derision on him because of the claims he was attempting to examine.

We've lost a potential convert here, folks.

 

[PixyMisa]

We've lost a potential convert here, folks.

The problem is that, while willing to listen to arguments and look at evidence, gs21stc demonstrates less understanding of the natural world than the average 9-year-old. He can't or won't generalise; every claim, no matter how absurd, is accepted as reasonable until demolished by specific evidence.

 

[The Atheist]

Let's look at the alternatives. There is no evidence that aliens have ever visited earth. There is evidence that humans create crop circles with boards and rope.

No contest, really.

Far too obvious.

Thanks. I suspect that it might be a false claim, just want to make sure. I don't understand why some people think that I believe and support this claim.

That's patent crap. You could have spent five seconds checking it out. Even worse, as I noted (and you failed to answer) you gave yourself away as lying when you mentioned: "...the claim by the croppies ..."

There are no "croppies" who have ever said such a thing, are there?

You're a troll.

That's it. I thought the James Randi forum is a friendly and enjoyable discussion forum. I do not appreciate these insults, and I will pull out from this forum.

Don't be silly - trolling isn't giving up because you've been pwned 19 different ways. Trolls never give up, never accept evidence. You'll be back - no doubt with more gibberish.

I thought it was a little unfair for people to heap derision on someone who was genuinely examining something that he thought had a little validity, but who was convinced by the weight of evidence and changed his mind. Isn't that what people are supposed to do?

Sure, except in gs21stc's case, he's lied and been nothing but a troll. As I just noted, he made that clear when he clearly posted something which had been made up after having claimed to accept the man-made nature of the patterns.

Troll, deserving of nothing but contempt.

 

[CFLarsen]

You didn't - other people did.

Then why single out my response?

Yes, but it wasn't his claim. You wrote "it is also a place where supernatural claims - such as your own - are scrutinized". I was pointing out that gs21stc wasn't making that claim, he was merely stating that he found a claim made by others compelling.

And he came here to defend it. To say it's not his claim is equivalent to saying that a believer in Sylvia Browne isn't claiming that she can talk to dead people. That is Sylvia's claim.

Pure silliness.

This indicates that gs21stc had a genuinely open mind - that he was critically examining claims that on the surface looked plausible. And some people (not mentioning any names) were heaping derision on him because of the claims he was attempting to examine.

If you can single me out even though I didn't heap derision on him, you can name those who did.

We've lost a potential convert here, folks.

I'm not so sure.

The problem is that, while willing to listen to arguments and look at evidence, gs21stc demonstrates less understanding of the natural world than the average 9-year-old. He can't or won't generalise; every claim, no matter how absurd, is accepted as reasonable until demolished by specific evidence.

I agree.

 

[EHocking]

That's patent crap. You could have spent five seconds checking it out. Even worse, as I noted (and you failed to answer) you gave yourself away as lying when you mentioned: "...the claim by the croppies ..."

There are no "croppies" who have ever said such a thing, are there?

I have to admit that initially I have been rather short with gs21stc as, in my opinion, s/he was being a little too credulous with the examples s/he's presented on this thread.

But in fairness, if he's been browsing the internet on the subject, I can understand where s/he's getting it from. Remember the OP was on "scientific" evidence that he'd found that made him/her rethink his/her attitide on crop circles.

So for the record, this is probably the type of thing that gs21stc is referring to:

http://www.bltresearch.com/plantab.html
Although this particular parameter has not been scientifically evaluated, it is known that mechanical flattening (with planks, boards or human feet) of many plants (particularly canola, above) will snap or break the plant stems, rather than bend them.

First search at Google on "crop circle bend break canola" vomited up quite a range of articles propounding on what gs21stc raised.

I think the accusation of lying (in this case) is unfair. The possibility of trolling I won't comment on, but gs21stc has presented here as being way to credulous - one of the things that annoyed me was that MY examples were accepted at face value without checking. It was down to ME to correct the errors I made in my posts.

 

[Dr H]

I would personally be astonished if there weren't many other planets or moons in the universe with life forms on them.

Are any of them intelligent? Impossible to know, but I look at it like this:

The time since the industrial revolution spans 0.00000005% of the time since life arose, the chances of us meeting another species with even greater intelligence than ours is very, very small. Even if 1,000,000,000 planets with life forms exist, then the odds are still only 50:50 that one of them is at the same technological stage or better than we are.

But even if that happened, there is then the need to overcome the vast distances involved - a technology far in advance of ours.

If that kind of technology exists, it makes no sense at all that they'd come all the way here, expending vast amounts of energy, alien-power (as opposed to man-power) and whatever passes for money, just to carve up some fillet steak and make pretty patterns in cornfields.

Taking the astronomical odds against it being aliens, then multiplying by the illogic of them doing it, aliens seem incredibly unlikely. Then if we subtract the fact that we know for sure that humans make crop circles, harbouring a belief that it's aliens isn't just unlikely, but insane.

Oh man... I almost missed this.

This means that we're not only being invaded by extraterrestrials: we're being invaded by crazy extraterrestrials!

Not a comforting thought to entertain the next time I'm abducted by a UFO.

Thanks a WHOLE lot, Atheist.

 

[The Atheist]

This means that we're not only being invaded by extraterrestrials: we're being invaded by crazy extraterrestrials!

It gets worse. They travel here for 31 million years and the first thing they do is anally probe some poor bloke in the middle of the Nullabor Plain.

They not just crazy aliens, they're gay crazy aliens.

What are the odds of that?

 

[Indie9999]

Hi, im new to these forums! (hope my introduction here isn't out of place!)

I was to start a thread asking people's opinions about BLT research myself! I'm glad someone else did it now!

I am a skeptical thinker but this doesn't stop me foraying into the world of woo now and then, mainly because I meet a lot of people due to my way of life, and many people present me with all sorts of whacky idea's and opinions.

It was yesterday I met an American guy who told me to look into the anomalies in plants in some crop circles. I very quickly went from "crop cirlces are from human's" to "Now i'm not so sure" and then today quickly back to "Very much looks like all from human's again" But I'm going to keep my mind open, not just on crop circles, but just keep it open! It's dangerous to ever close it to anything really.

(from PixyMisa) The problem is that, while willing to listen to arguments and look at evidence, gs21stc demonstrates less understanding of the natural world than the average 9-year-old. He can't or won't generalise; every claim, no matter how absurd, is accepted as reasonable until demolished by specific evidence.

I thought that was a bit unfair to 9 year olds, they have wonderful open minds!

Anyway, i am grateful to the original poster for asking these questions and a applaud his inquisitive nature, and his willingness to accept new ideas and opinions, from both sides of things.

At the risk of offending people here I must say that sometimes people are a little too personal with their retors, its not really conducive to a logical debate with good outcomes when you let emotions take over. Emotions are what fuels a lot of the woo world, us skeptical critical thinkers have to step outside of these emotionally charged opinions.

Thank you everyone for helping me remain rational with regards to BLT research, i have to admit i was blinded quite quickly when they called themselves scientists.

 

[dafydd]

I am not prepared to believe that they are liars yet. If they are, I definitely would want them to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

You can't be prosecuted for printing nonsense about crop circles.

 

[dafydd]

It gets worse. They travel here for 31 million years and the first thing they do is anally probe some poor bloke in the middle of the Nullabor Plain.

They not just crazy aliens, they're gay crazy aliens.

What are the odds of that?

That has always puzzled me.a super-intelligent space going race takes the time and trouble to come here and all they do is scare the crap out of a couple of rednecks on a lonely road at night.It could happen,I suppose that aliens have teenagers too.

 

[dafydd]

Who knows? Who cares? Crop circles are made by humans.

Yes.No more to be said.