Cancer rise in Fallujah

Captain.Sassy said:
Nobody's saying that though. Dying babies seem to be much more common in Fallujah than elsewhere, and the doctors in Fallujah complained that babies started dying more post- 2004 battle. Numerous researchers (cited above) have done studies which suggest that depleted uranium could have the kinds of effects we're seeing in Fallujah.
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Those effects being... death?


Has the US ever categorically denied using depleted uranium in Fallujah?
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Or raping and killing a girl in 1980?


To sum up (I may have missed something and am feeling snarky anyway):
1) Small uncontrolled door to door survey by outside observers in Fallujah shows statistical anomalies (M/F birth ratio and infant mortality rate)
2) Various studies show various possible effects from Depleted Uranium which may or may not have any relation to statistical anomalies (birth defects vs. infant mortality?)
3) It is possible that Depleted Uranium was used in Fallujah

From these points the conclusion to be drawn is obviously:
5) Profit!!
 
Aoidoi said:
Or raping and killing a girl in 1980?
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If raping and killing girls was standard operating procedure for the US army and if raped and killed girls were showing up in Fallujah I think it would be fair to ask.

But since you bring it up:


"Ronda Mechelle Blaylock November 9, 1965 - August 26, 1980 {Cause of death: Multiple stab wounds to the chest and abdomen.} Ronda was a ninth grade student at Atkins High School in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. She attended school on Tuesday, rode the bus home to a friend's house, and she and the friend walked back to her house so that Miss Blaylock could change clothes. The two girls started walking back towards the friends house and were picked up by a young man driving a blue Chevrolet pickup truck with a white camper. The driver then dropped the friend off at her Rural Hall, North Carolina home. Miss Blaylock was never seen alive again. Her body was found about 50 feet off a private road off Secrest Road near the Surry-Stokes County line. Her murder remains unsolved."



But the US Army only rapes and kills tanks!
 
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Captain.Sassy said:
If raping and killing girls was standard operating procedure for the US army and if raped and killed girls were showing up in Fallujah I think it would be fair to ask.

But since you bring it up:


"Ronda Mechelle Blaylock November 9, 1965 - August 26, 1980 {Cause of death: Multiple stab wounds to the chest and abdomen.} Ronda was a ninth grade student at Atkins High School in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. She attended school on Tuesday, rode the bus home to a friend's house, and she and the friend walked back to her house so that Miss Blaylock could change clothes. The two girls started walking back towards the friends house and were picked up by a young man driving a blue Chevrolet pickup truck with a white camper. The driver then dropped the friend off at her Rural Hall, North Carolina home. Miss Blaylock was never seen alive again. Her body was found about 50 feet off a private road off Secrest Road near the Surry-Stokes County line. Her murder remains unsolved."
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Where was Glenn Beck during this time? Does he have an alibi?
 
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/index.html

Potential health effects of exposure to depleted uranium

* In the kidneys, the proximal tubules (the main filtering component of the kidney) are considered to be the main site of potential damage from chemical toxicity of uranium. There is limited information from human studies indicating that the severity of effects on kidney function and the time taken for renal function to return to normal both increase with the level of uranium exposure.
* In a number of studies on uranium miners, an increased risk of lung cancer was demonstrated, but this has been attributed to exposure from radon decay products. Lung tissue damage is possible leading to a risk of lung cancer that increases with increasing radiation dose. However, because DU is only weakly radioactive, very large amounts of dust (on the order of grams) would have to be inhaled for the additional risk of lung cancer to be detectable in an exposed group. Risks for other radiation-induced cancers, including leukaemia, are considered to be very much lower than for lung cancer.
* Erythema (superficial inflammation of the skin) or other effects on the skin are unlikely to occur even if DU is held against the skin for long periods (weeks).
* No consistent or confirmed adverse chemical effects of uranium have been reported for the skeleton or liver.
* No reproductive or developmental effects have been reported in humans.
* Although uranium released from embedded fragments may accumulate in the central nervous system (CNS) tissue, and some animal and human studies are suggestive of effects on CNS function, it is difficult to draw firm conclusions from the few studies reported.
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Captain.Sassy said:
If raping and killing girls was standard operating procedure for the US army and if raped and killed girls were showing up in Fallujah I think it would be fair to ask.

But since you bring it up:


"Ronda Mechelle Blaylock November 9, 1965 - August 26, 1980 {Cause of death: Multiple stab wounds to the chest and abdomen.} Ronda was a ninth grade student at Atkins High School in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. She attended school on Tuesday, rode the bus home to a friend's house, and she and the friend walked back to her house so that Miss Blaylock could change clothes. The two girls started walking back towards the friends house and were picked up by a young man driving a blue Chevrolet pickup truck with a white camper. The driver then dropped the friend off at her Rural Hall, North Carolina home. Miss Blaylock was never seen alive again. Her body was found about 50 feet off a private road off Secrest Road near the Surry-Stokes County line. Her murder remains unsolved."



But the US Army only rapes and kills tanks!
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Wow. You just don't like the US Military. What a freaking surprise.
 
JihadJane said:
What kind of presence did "al Qaeda" have in Fallujah?
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This is, in fact, exactly my point.

When you can snatch the pebble from the palm of my hand, young grasshopper, I will take you off ignore again.

Meanwhile, have a parting koan: If I'm ignoring you, how will I know that you've done something to demonstrate I shouldn't be?
 
I have something here for the DU truthers to consider:

High maximum annual doses of up to several hundred mSv are found in Kerala, India and Ramsar, Iran. The monazite-bearing, high-thoron-content sands of Kerala have a resident population of 200,000 living for generations at these high background levels. The frequency of micronuclei formation in newborns living in the HBRA of Kerala was not different from newborns living in normal radiation areas.

There was no increase in all cancer mortality, all cause mortality or decrease in longevity in native populations exposed to high levels of background radiation when compared with low-dose regions over an annual dose range of 0.8 - 700 mSv. More rapid DNA repair was observed in persons living in Ramsar, Iran, who were exposed to high background radiation. Studies of Brazilian HBRAs showed both nonsignificant slightly increased and descreased cancer mortality. No increase in cancer incidence has been found in inhabitants of Yangjiang , China, Kerala, India, or in Ramsar, Iran. A negative excess cancer risk was found Yangjiang, China at a natural background exposure of 9.9 mSv/year. Lung cancer in Ramsar showed a general negative correlation with natural radon levels. A negative correlation was found for all cancer with natural background dose in cities of India. No increase in overall mortality or birth defects was found in case-control studies in Ramsar, Iran or in Kerala, India.

Ramsar, a coastal city in northern Iran has the highest level of background radiation in an inhabited region of the world; the dose level is more than 100 mSv/year. This dose level is more than five times higher than the 20 mSv/year permitted for radiation workers or 55 - 200 times more than the average global dose. There have been no ill effects to populations in Ramsar exposed to these high radiation levels. No significant cytogenic effects have been observed in Ramsar compared with those living in normal background levels. Physicians in Ramsar have not reported an increase in cancer rates. An in vitro challenge dose of 1.5 Gy given to blood lymphocytes of inhabitants of Ramsar showed significantly reduced chromosomal damage compared with residents of normal background levels.
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So, can someone explain how American radiation causes higher cancer rates and incidence of birth defects while areas of much higher naturally occurring radiation sees either no increase or an overall reduction in cancer of birth defects?

How is a radioactive particle supposed to know if it comes from an American armor piercing round and therefore must cause pain and misfortune or if it is a naturally occurring particle and therefore have no effect or even a beneficial one?
 
theprestige said:
This is, in fact, exactly my point.

When you can snatch the pebble from the palm of my hand, young grasshopper, I will take you off ignore again.

Meanwhile, have a parting koan: If I'm ignoring you, how will I know that you've done something to demonstrate I shouldn't be?
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Nobly, the great priest
deposits his daily stool
in bleak winter fields

-Buson
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/index.html

No reproductive or developmental effects have been reported in humans.
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When was that published?
I ask because it does not refute reports of DU effects on Human reproduction -- it says there aren't any. But there are. So it is either old, or wrong.

eg, here is one such report:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1242351/

above link said:
Conclusion
In aggregate the human epidemiological evidence is consistent with increased risk of birth defects in offspring of persons exposed to DU.
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Sword_Of_Truth said:
I have something here for the DU truthers to consider:



So, can someone explain how American radiation causes higher cancer rates and incidence of birth defects while areas of much higher naturally occurring radiation sees either no increase or an overall reduction in cancer of birth defects?

How is a radioactive particle supposed to know if it comes from an American armor piercing round and therefore must cause pain and misfortune or if it is a naturally occurring particle and therefore have no effect or even a beneficial one?
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Have you considered this part of what you quoted:?

High maximum annual doses of up to several hundred mSv are found in Kerala, India and Ramsar, Iran. The monazite-bearing, high-thoron-content sands of Kerala have a resident population of 200,000 living for generations at these high background levels.

[...] More rapid DNA repair was observed in persons living in Ramsar, Iran, who were exposed to high background radiation.
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Since you refer to us as DU truthers, maybe we should start calling you a creationist. A mutagen present for generations, and more rapid DNA repair in the population that has been exposed. "God works in mysterious ways", I bet you'll say.



WildCat said:
Is anything at all required for DU to get put on the suspect list?
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Yes. Symptoms of exposure and the possibility of exposure.


theprestige said:
Well, it exists. Of course, by that standard, you'd think cigarettes and AQ propaganda would be on the list too...
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If you believe that smoking increased by such a large margin in 2004 then add cigarettes to your list. I don't think it likely.

You might like to consider Travis' idea, post 54: the industries in the area. Considering what happened in Bhopal, India -- yes, not identical -- it makes more sense than cigarettes, IMO.
 
FireGarden said:
I ask because it does not refute reports of DU effects on Human reproduction -- it says there aren't any. But there are. So it is either old, or wrong.
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Or you are wrong.

WHOs parent organization, the UN, is hardly a bastion of reactive pro-americanism. If you can convince them that they really are babies deformed by US foreign policy, their website will be changed in about ten minutes.

I'm not terribly interested in your faith-based statements.

Have you considered this part of what you quoted:?
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Yes, I am aware. Do you understand what the word "repair" means?

Since you refer to us as DU truthers,
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Truthers = purveyors of anti-american propaganda in the form of scientifically unsupported conspiracy theories portraying the United States as pointlessly and unnecessarily bloody mass murderers.

maybe we should start calling you a creationist. A mutagen present for generations, and more rapid DNA repair in the population that has been exposed. "God works in mysterious ways", I bet you'll say.
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You are obviously unfamiliar with the concept of radiation hormesis.

So can you explain the discrepancies between the Ramsar and Fallujah studies or not?

A simple yes or no should suffice.
 
FireGarden said:
Because I find it hard to believe that Fallujah became a smoking hot-spot in 2004. But I don't find it hard to believe that DU was used in Fallujah in 2004.
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Oh, I do find it reasonably likely that some DU rounds were used in Fallujah. However for the alleged effects to be caused primarily by DU, Fallujah would have to be practically razed to the ground with DU munitions. Since this didn't happen we're left with one implausible and one impossible explanation.

Sure, the smoking hypothesis probably isn't correct (though it could be), but neither is the DU one.

Ignore it? No. But we don't treat it as a conclusion when it isn't.
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Then we don't have anything to discuss in the study. Their methodology is extremely weak and their allegations of DU are inconsistent with other studies.
The rest is fine and can be summarized as: birth defects and other health problems rose in Fallujah and something caused them.
Not very interesting at all.

When was that IAEA page published?
Here's a quick google of my own, a study published 2005:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1242351/
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[/quote]

Some time after 2003. If you read the article it again relates to statistical analysis of health problems in battle zones. That would be fine if DU was the only toxic thing that would be released in that time. That is obviously false.
The article was also written by someone who can't tell the difference between alpha radiation and gamma radiation. Here's a clue: the former is not a health hazard if it is outside the body.

Find me a study that will show Uranium is teratogenic at levels one is reasonably expected to encounter if living in an area where it was used in fighting. It is teratogenic at high enough levels, that is true, but the levels we've seen used thus far that produced measurable effects were way off the scale.

McHrozni
 
the doctor, the depleted uranium, and the dying children
53:02 - two years ago
an award winning documentary film produced for german television by frieder wagner and valentin thurn. The film exposes the use and impact of radioactive weapons during the current war against iraq. The story is told by citizens of many nations. It opens with comments by two british veterans, kenny duncan and jenny moore, describing their exposure to radioactive, so-called depleted uranium (du), weapons and the congenital abnormalities of their children. Dr. Siegwart-horst günther, a former colleague of albert schweitzer, and tedd weyman of the uranium medical research center (umrc) traveled to iraq, from germany and canada respectively, to assess uranium contamination in iraq.
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Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
DU truthers
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1. Nobody is saying it was definitively depleted uranium. I have maintained that I'm open to alternative explanations- so far, no evidence has been provided in support of any of these hypotheses (running the gamut from 'Fallujah was always full of dying babies' to 'they started smoking' to 'Al Qaeda fudged the survey')

2. Several studies, published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, have been cited in this thread showing the genotoxic properties of uranium as a chemical; the apparent radiological effects of depleted uranium on human precursor bone cells; and the toxic effects of depleted uranium on mice reproductive organs (I believe, it might have been on mice period). So the 'truther' label is misplaced in this instance.

radiation
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Again, uranium has been shown to have non-radiological genotoxic effects. It's a gene poison even if it isn't radioactive.
 
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