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Banned Book:The Hoax of the Twentieth Century

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I didn't mean it as a rhetorical question. I really want to know why you posted something without doing any checking at all?

Here´s a guess... posting obvious lies goes so well with how he handles all the rest of his Holocaust denial. Because, I sort of doubt didn´t check - I bet he simply ignored the results when they weren´t to his liking.
 
Holocaust revisionists have been subjected to murder, physical assault, arson attacks, intimidation, censorship and imprisonment.

You say that like it's a bad thing.


When people are subjected to murder, physical assault, arson attacks, intimidation, censorship and imprisonment for expressing a belief or opinion with which you agree, then perhaps you'll understand.
 
Discriminating between utter crap and a legitimate issue isn't all that hard.

That's easy to say, as long as your own beliefs aren't the ones being labeled as “utter crap”.

As it happens, I am descended from a group of people who, in the mid 19th century, in the United States of America where we are supposed to have religious freedom, were subjected to murder, physical assault, arson attacks, intimidation, censorship and imprisonment because of their religious beliefs.

You certainly have a right to describe someone else's particular belief or opinion as “utter crap”. When you advocate violence against another, or other violations of another's most basic human rights, because you disagree with something that they believe, then you've crossed the line.
 
Holocaust revisionists have been subjected to murder, physical assault, arson attacks, intimidation, censorship and imprisonment.

name a Holocaust revisionist who was murdered by someone who was against his beliefs regarding the Holocaust.

and if its true, cry me a river.
 
When people are subjected to murder, physical assault, arson attacks, intimidation, censorship and imprisonment for expressing a belief or opinion with which you agree, then perhaps you'll understand.

You mean like the Jews in Europe during WWII who just wanted to live their lives and raise their families? Oh, wait. They got a lot worse and did nothing at all to deserve it.

One thing this thread did prompt me to learn about, though, is the Canadian Human Rights Act. I do not support 13[1] which makes it a crime to speak hatefully on the internet. I want to be able to challenge the haters in open debate rather than force them underground. I think that law will get changed; there's a lot of criticism over it. It really does no good to sweep this stuff out of sight, and I don't think it's good to give nazis the opportunity to present themselves as martyrs.
 
That's easy to say, as long as your own beliefs aren't the ones being labeled as “utter crap”.

As it happens, I am descended from a group of people who, in the mid 19th century, in the United States of America where we are supposed to have religious freedom, were subjected to murder, physical assault, arson attacks, intimidation, censorship and imprisonment because of their religious beliefs.

You certainly have a right to describe someone else's particular belief or opinion as “utter crap”. When you advocate violence against another, or other violations of another's most basic human rights, because you disagree with something that they believe, then you've crossed the line.

Do you really want to equate the LDS with Neo Nazis?????
 
Canada bans importing 'The Hoax... '

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p--4_Weber.html

"The Canadian government has banned the importation of many purely political and historical works, including Behind Communism and None Dare Call It Conspiracy, on the basis of a law which makes it illegal to import literature "of an immoral or indecent character." Bowing to pressure from the B'nai B'rith, Canadian officials added The Hoax of the Twentieth Century to its list of banned books. Canadian police even raided a couple of university libraries to seize copies of this supposedly dangerous book from library shelves. The B'nai B'rith recently asked the Canadian government to forbid the importation of all future issues of The Journal of Historical Review, a particularly pernicious violation of the time-honored principle of the presumption of innocence. Of course, the hypocritical import ban will have no significant long-term effect on the ever wider distribution of revisionist works in Canada. As Arthur Butz put it, the Canadian move against his book was rather like locking the barn door after the horses have already escaped."


I see a claim of banning, but no citations of the relevant law nor links to news articles citing the occurrences described.

The site I linked to is dedicated to tracking and monitoring instances of book and magazine suppression. The thirty-page PDF file I linked to lists many cases of books and magazines facing issues and the outcome of those cases. It is odd then how it does not list anything else about Mr. Butz's book other than the ones I posted.

If it the book is banned as your source claims, then he ought to be able to point to specific instances (as the source I provided does), as well as point to the relevant legislation or banned/prohibited list.

Even then, that does nothing to obscure the fact that there are three copies of the book, right now, sitting on the shelves in libraries of the University of Toronto. It may well be sitting on the shelves of libraries in other Canadian universities or in public libraries; I didn't check because no further effort seemed required on my part to prove the book is, in fact, present in the country.

The 'banning' if it exists certainly didn't result in all copies of the book being confiscated and destroyed.
 
The same people who criticise Arthur Butz for not being a historian and writing The Hoax of the Twentieth Century are the same ones who say nothing about Raul Hilberg who is supposed to have written the "definitive" account of the holocaust called The Destruction of the European Jews. He wasn't a historian either but that doesn't bother people with double standards.

Responding to this one late, I know...

Hilberg was a professor of Political Science, true, but he clearly had to be well versed in history to understand all the forces at work behind the politics of 20th century Europe. Political Science is a heck of a lot more closely related to History than Electrical Engineering is, in any event. He was a professor at my alma mater, the University of Vermont, by the way.
 
As it happens, I am descended from a group of people who, in the mid 19th century, in the United States of America where we are supposed to have religious freedom, were subjected to murder, physical assault, arson attacks, intimidation, censorship and imprisonment because of their religious beliefs.

Your religion is crap. Get used to it.
 
That's easy to say, as long as your own beliefs aren't the ones being labeled as “utter crap”.

As it happens, I am descended from a group of people who, in the mid 19th century, in the United States of America where we are supposed to have religious freedom, were subjected to murder, physical assault, arson attacks, intimidation, censorship and imprisonment because of their religious beliefs.

You certainly have a right to describe someone else's particular belief or opinion as “utter crap”. When you advocate violence against another, or other violations of another's most basic human rights, because you disagree with something that they believe, then you've crossed the line.

There is the problem though, nazi's do not have a track record for being peaceful , tolerant human beings. And in fact have quite the track record in the opposite. While i will agree with you that a group that has no history of violence, nor a history of trying to incite violence , should not be banned, or have violence advocated against them. A group that has shown a distinct tendency toward large and small scale violence since their creation should be treated with an appropriate amount of scorn.

There are some situations in which a belief becomes so obviously harmful, that society in general needs to make sure that the damage it did does not happen again. And if one can actually sit there and say nazi ideology ( or any other of the names they have chosen over the years.) does not fit into this category, then i would question your ability to judge harmful effects.

There is a time to get along and a time to take out the trash. The world realized this during world war 2 and it is a lesson that we need to keep in our hearts.

What you are essentially saying when you make the point that no group no matter how vile should be opposed with bans or violence, is that you as a person do not feel comfortable in your ability to judge good from evil and do not want to harm anyone if you make a mistake. And that is fine, if you feel this way, you should not take these types of actions. But don't then extend that to everyone else. I may not be able to judge a court case, but what i can say with confidence, is that the ideology of nazi's has not a single benefit to humanity, and many many detriments. If this means that people who embrace this view get the short end of the stick, so be it. They are doing nothing but harming the world in a very obvious way.

I do not throw around the concept of physical violence, or even ( symbolic. Let's face it folks banning of books in the internet age , unless your in a dictatorship, is symbolic. )banning willy nilly. But when someone is so obviously evil as a nazi, i feel no remorse in shafting them. Being a nazi isn't skin color, or where you were born, it is a choice one makes, it is embracing an ideal that is harmful. And you cannot then whine that the world isn't treating you fairly, if you had your way, you wouldn't be treating others fairly. Essentially today's nazis are complaining that people arn't playing fair. Which coming from a nazi makes me laugh.
 
... Being a nazi isn't skin color, or where you were born, it is a choice one makes, it is embracing an ideal that is harmful. ..
.
And as far as I'm concerned, have voluntarily departed from the human race, and need not be considered as anything but a thing that should be eliminated.
 
You say that like it's a bad thing.

Actually, it is - unless they participate in actual neo-Nazi activities. OTOH, it is honorable and perfectly reasonable that they be subject to scorn, derision, humiliation, abjuration, ridicule, etc. as those and related are all they deserve
from real human beings.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::jaw-dropp
 
Actually, it is - unless they participate in actual neo-Nazi activities. OTOH, it is honorable and perfectly reasonable that they be subject to scorn, derision, humiliation, abjuration, ridicule, etc. as those and related are all they deserve
from real human beings.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::jaw-dropp

Agreed 100% if you mean verbal. I draw the line at physical violence.
 
The same people who criticise Arthur Butz for not being a historian and writing The Hoax of the Twentieth Century are the same ones who say nothing about Raul Hilberg who is supposed to have written the "definitive" account of the holocaust called The Destruction of the European Jews. He wasn't a historian either but that doesn't bother people with double standards.


Granting for the sake of argument that someone actually claimed this, Hilberg was a political scientist. The Holocaust had much to do with politics, and nothing to do with electrical engineering. Fail.

ETA: arisia beat me to it.
 
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I looked up this article, although not at the site linked above. The article seems to be making its rounds on the internet. All the hate sites, and lots of others that allow people to post. I actually read it at open.salon.com.

Quick summary: University employee of the history department publishes (self published at 320 copies) a holocaust denial book, gets fired and prosecuted. Ten years later, found dead in a car. Ruled a suicide, which the author doubts.

There's one question I have about this to Mondial.

It refers to the guy (whose name I can't remember, because of the unfamiliar Polish spelling, Dariusz something or another) as one of the country's most promising young historians, prior to the time he suffered a campaign of slander that ruined his life after he touched on a taboo subject.

Do you think that's really true? I don't. What I mean is that I don't think he was a promising historian. He was 37 years old and Wikipedia gives his publication list, and there are only 8 entries. Also, the article didn't call him a "professor". I know that US and Western European systems may not translate to other cultures, but I would expect someone with that promise to have lots of publications and be tenured by that age.

It is my experience in studying fringe history topics that if a source can't get the little details right, they are usually wrong about the "big stuff" too. So, I think that this guy was someone whose career was going nowhere, and who was regarded as, to be charitable, eccentric. He slipped into paranoia and delusion and committed suicide before his 50th birthday, all the while blaming THEM for his downfall. (In his case, THEM was probably the international Jewish conspiracy and their allies in the Polish government.)

But, please, if you have information about this guy beyond the link you posted, do enlighten us. Just keep in mind that on a topic like this, multiple sources are best, because, throught experience, we expect lies from single sources.

His name is Dariusz Ratajczak.

I doubt you'll get much information from Mondial. My interest was piqued by the mention in the wiki-page that he were the European representative of the Adelaide Institute, so I decided to try my Google-fu on this. I haven't found evidence of that fact, but hang on.

There's little in the way of original English writing in trustworthy sources. I haven't found more than:
BBC news, 16 November 1999
Times (London), 21 April 2000 article
both reporting on the prosecution. There should also be articles in German papers, but they're not online. I did find an interview in Polish:
Gazeta Wyborszka interview, 25 December 2007 (in Polish) (the leading Polish liberal quality paper)
and an interview in Polish with a Polish expat (?)
Zbyszek Koreywo interview, 15 October 2002 (English translation)

Finally, some of Ratajczak's own writings are online:
Niebezpieczne tematy ("Dangerous topics"), the 1999 booklet with which the whole affair began
His own Blogspot site
in particular: Amerykańska piąta kolumna ("America's Fifth Column"), 19 January 2009

The Koreywo interview, and Ratajczak's writings can be found in many other places, invariably neo-Nazi and/or antisemitic - as are the links I gave. For a moment I thought the link I gave above for the 1999 booklet ("Library in memory of Prof. Feliks Koneczny") was respectable, but his wiki entry says he was a flaming anti-semite.

I don't know Polish, so I had to rely on Google translator for all the Polish sources. My apologies beforehand if I misrepresent things because of that; I'd be grateful if someone who knows Polish checks the Polish sources I gave. I may also have forgotten to mention some links from which I took some details.

From the above, I can piece together the following history.

Ratajczak completed his Master's thesis in 1986, entitled "Polacy na Wileńszczyźnie 1939-1944" (Poles in the Wilno district), and later published it as a book. In 1988, he got a position at Opole university. He published two books there and taught on modern history. In 1994, he started working on his Ph.D thesis, which was about the post-WW2 military court sentences in Opole itself, and got the Ph.D. title. In 1997, he started on his habilitation, a third thesis that is required to get tenure. In 1999, he published the non-scientific booklet "Dangerous topics", which sparked the controversy.

I can't really say if his academic output is big or small, that depends entirely on the culture. I did my Ph.D. thesis in Germany (in CS), and there it was normal to not publish before your Ph.D., but rather to publish parts of your Ph.D. thesis as articles after you finished the Ph.D. We also don't know if he published articles besides the books. And maybe he did publish articles besides the books. But I think the point is moot, his own writings say the lot.

In 1999, he published his "Dangerous topics" in small circulation (230 copies, according to other sources 320 copies), and according to himself, gave some copies to the Dean, but the outrage only came when the director of the Auschwitz museum read it. He was prosecuted for Holocaust denial. The court found him guilty but imposed no penalty. The prosecutor appealed, and the appeal court affirmed the verdict and the punishment. Meanwhile, though, Opole university suspended him for 3 years from teaching.

He was shunned by (former) colleagues and friends, his wife divorced him and in the end he worked as a night porter and lived in his car. 11 June 2010, he was found dead in the back of his car. The death was ruled a suicide. I haven't found much in the way how his slide from assistant professor to night porter proceeded. In the 2007 Wyborzca interview, he seems still to be quite OK and also relates that in 2005, he published a revised version of the "Dangerous Topics".

Social ostracism in itself - especially loss of job combined with divorce - can easily explain his slide into homelessness and suicide. But as you rightly questioned, let's also look at his track record, as far as we can see from his own words.

In the 2002 Koreywo interview, he largely blames the establishment at the university for his downfall: they are still products of the communist era, and he doesn't go out of his way to criticize what people did during that era. He mentions this especially in relation to his Ph.D. thesis which mentions, according to him, many daddies of current professors. However, he also confesses to bring up "incorrect topics", and some of the titles may already raise your eyebrows: "Starve the rat, or critically about American feminism", "Freemasonry yesterday and today", "Hitlerism and Communism common roots", "Does colonialism deserve to be unconditionally condemned ?".

Let's then turn to the subject of antisemitism. He implores that
the Jewish subject was not the center of my historic interest.
However, let's look how often "the Jewish subject" features in this interview:
the murder of Bogdan Piasecki (19) (because Jews committed the murder, so it is not proper to speak about it),
Not proven, the murder was never solved.
the Gehenna of the Trockists from the KOR
Of course, all Trotskists are Jews. :rolleyes:
over all this the Holocaust Industry is watching, and talking with the teachers' mouths into young people our alleged offenses against the Jews.
And
During the lectures, more than once, I touched on the so-called Jewish subject. This was most justified, especially in the context of most recent history of Poland. When I was speaking of the functions, structure, and make-up of the Ministry of Public Security, the grim ubecja , I would mention that in this institution there was an overrepresentation of individuals of Jewish extraction, especially on the decision level.
The ubecja was the Polish secret service.
When I mentioned the case of the monstrous murder of Boleslaw Piasecki’s son, I would say, in accordance with truth, that all the traces of the murder led to Israel. When, finally, I was discussing the attitude of the majority of Jews toward Poland’s regaining independence in 1918, and their conduct in the years of the Polish-Bolshevik war, as well as after the Soviet invasion of September 17, 1939, I would state that they were not, by any means, the paragon of patriotic virtue. This irritated the university acabus. The end came eventually, under some pretext, in 1998, when my classes on most recent history of Poland got cut back; they were "transferred" to the 19th century. This did not help much, because the Jewish ubeks could always be replaced with the Jews-Litwaks (30), who were equally anti-Polish. All in all, this was painful to me, the more so that, firstly, I would always base my lectures on sources, and, secondly, the Jewish subject was not the center of my historic interest.
Let's rephrase that second-last sentence: in the 20th Century, it was all Jews in the Communist secret service, and in the 19th Century, it was all (Lithuanian) Jews in the Czarist secret service.
Speaking of the Jewish revolution in Russia (because it was the Jews who crammed the decision-making posts of the Bolshevik revolutionaly machinery),
Ah, the old canard that Jews were overrepresented among the Bolsheviks.
By the way, today the "Holocaust Industry" stresses Jewish suffering during WWII, but I’ve got the irresistible impression that this practive is but a screen for the Jewish considerable part in the crimes of Communism.
And
Perhaps gratitude is the Jewish national trait that is not excessively developed ?
And there are many more passages. He denies being an anti-semite, and in the same paragraph, refers to the writings of Israel Shahak, undoubtedly alluding to his invented Talmud passages.

It's not only the Jews, though, that stand in the way of this staunch Polish nationalist. The other group has already been mentioned in one of his "incorrect topics" above. Some more quotes:
we are moving toward the post-Freemason hybrid called the European Union
and
The French Revolution. What an insult to France. After all, the spur for the revolution came from international Freemasonic circles, or, more precisely, deeply initiated Freemasonic circles, the "illuminates", who picked out France - the key and richest country in Europe - as their first victim. [...] Real France is the Capetians and bleeding Vendee (43) during the bandit revolution, not the handpicked society of Freemasons and their allies.

The picture is clear: Mr. Ratajczak is not a bona-fide historian, but a full-blown CT-er who sees a world conspiracy of Jews and Freemasons. Now, you may say: this is in 2002, when he was booted from university and already had descended into delusions as a result of that. But let's then review the book it all began with, the "Dangerous Topics". The book consists of three parts. The first is about half of it and has as chapter titles:
JUDAICA
Jews against anti-Polish Jews
Karl Marx - the revolutionary Jews - leftist Antisemitism
Jews - Talmud - Healing
Mystery of the origin of Adolf Hitler
National Armed Forces and The Jews
Holocaust Revisionism
Is Israel a Democratic State?


The second, smaller part is:
Masonica
Masonry and conspiracy theory of history
Freemasonry - Rites


And the third part contains various subjects, mostly of a nationalistic nature. Most of the chapters had already been published, not in scientific journals but in right-wing papers.

For a taste, a translation of a paragraph from "Masonry and conspiracy theory of history":
Freemasonry strives to master all areas of intellectual life and social life. This is an indispensable factor to take power over the entire world. Many of her demands have already been implemented. Gold International, rich in unlimited funds, control the mass - media, banks, politicians, penetrating the church (a good example being the Netherlands, Poland and recently even the Father Tischner and paramasońskiej katolewicy) and universities, at least managed to undermine Christianity, raise doubts among the people its validity and usefulness, and finally liberate them lying in beds of permissiveness, materialism, relativity and primitive.

Finally, let's focus on the Holocaust chapter. It begins with:
Since the mid-70s the Holocaust, regarded as a religion, as something exceptional, which has no precedent in the history of the world, begins to meet with resistance on the part of historians, revisionists.

They criticize not only its uniqueness but also reviewing the existing version of events. In other words, shall review the officially given the number of Jews exterminated during the war, as well as ways of killing.

These people are treated by the followers of religion, the Holocaust, so supporters of censorship and forcing a false world opinion, propaganda image of the past, as charlatans, neo-Nazis and extreme anti-Semites.
The tone is totally uncritical towards revisionists. It even calls them "historians". As we've seen in every thread here, revisionists are indeed charlatans, who don't critically treat their subject, nor are trained as a historian.

He praises Leuchter and lies about his exploits:
Fred Leuchter, the only U.S. expert on the construction of equipment for capital punishment-the gas chambers
Quod non.
In the same year Leuchter, professional quality, a man devoid of any political inclination "(he knows just the gas chambers and killing substances-such and so many) went along with the Polish team, which examined the gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek. Thesis developed by him after returning expertise proved to be deadly for the supporters of the official version of the Holocaust,
Leuchter was not a professional but an amateur who illegally worked as an engineer. He took samples of the gas chambers alone and, in fact, illegally without consent from the Polish authorities. His report has been thoroughly debunked, in fact, from the moment it was used in Zündel's trial. And this all happened 10 years before Ratajczak wrote this all. He should have known better.

He emphatically denies being a Holocaust denier, both in the 2002 Koreywo interview and the 2007 Wyborzca interview, and claims that he told his students that, yes, the Holocaust did happen. However, this chapter is wholly uncritical in its approach to revisionist claims, and moreover, he even affirms some of those claims:
To sum up this topic we can say without making a major mistake that the Zyklon B used in concentration camps to disinfect rather than murdering people (so famous selection of the gas "was a mere division newcomers by age, gender, health status)"
In other words, Ratajczak agrees with the revisionist claim that Zyklon-B was not used for gassing people. He concludes with the sentence:
it appears that the number of 2.5 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust will not be far from the truth.
after having suggested the extermination camps didn't exist and that the Einsatzgruppen were there for killing partisans and only accidentally killed Jews who stayed in those areas. As far as I can read from the Google translation, these paragraphs were not written as a rendering of revisionist arguments, but as a conclusion of the author.

So yes, from what I've read, Ratajczak is a Holocaust denier, or at least, minimizer. The booklet doesn't have footnotes or a bibliography - it was not a scientific publication - but it's clear that his use of sources is either lacking or purposefully selective. In fact, the 3 year suspension he got for teaching was very lenient, IMHO, as all I've read thus far from his hand betrays sheer incompetence as historian and incorrigible CT behaviour.
 
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I have to disagree with you. There is a difference between knowingly participating in a crime, and, decades later, not believing that the crime actually took place.

To me, the difference between participating in the crime and disbelieving that it happened is irrelevant. The key is why they disbelieve it.
Those who deny the holocaust are not comparable to those who carried out the crimes of which you speak. The Holocaust-related counterparts to “the authors of the bloodshed at Carthage” —as well as the other related crimes, the Haun's Mill Massacre, the Seige at Far West, the Extermination Order, and the many other similar crimes that were perpetrated in that time against our people — are those who actually participated in the Holocaust, who participated in rounding up and murdering the millions that the Nazis deemed “undesirable”.

I said that they were identical in thought and spirit to those who persecuted the early saints.

What Holocaust denial does is it places the jews at the center of a vast conspiracy to rewrite the history books for their own benefit. This hateful paranoia-mongering is what led to the Holocaust in the first place.

And it is the same kind of fear-mongering that led Governor Boggs to order our own micro-Holocaust in the 1830's.

Heaven help us all if there is ever a second Holocaust. If their is, it will be carried out by those most easily convinced that the jews (or whoever is targeted) have done something to deserve it.

Someone who denies that the Haun's Mill Massacre, the Seige at Far West, the Extermination Order or the murders at Carthage took place is equivalent to a Holocaust denier. In either case, such a person is only exercising his natural right to hold and express a belief, even if that belief goes against popular opinion. In neither case does this make the person in question equivalent to those who actually perpetrated these crimes.

I've never actually heard anyone deny the crimes committed against our ancestors, Bob. The closest I heard was while explaining to a "christian" our churches history, his response to the Extermination order was "I wish I was there".

The motivation of those who carried out the Holocaust is identical to those who deny it. And to those who carried out the murders of Joseph and Hyrum.

These people are our enemies. And save that they will repent, they will always remain so. I pray we will never be called into open conflict against them, but we do ourselves and our families a disservice by lowering our guard against them.
 
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