Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[Dancing David]

I am only chiming in because of my personal experience again, so of course take with a grain of salt. I've never heard most of these things and except for a few Jesus freaks I've never seen anything I would describe as fanatical.


I think maybe I need to move somewhere else so as to experience the full AA program because mine is missing all the important elements you guys say make up the program.

To be fair one of those statements is close. There is a lot of talk about working the steps. No one put it to me quite that way, saying I "had" to.

I have only been going to meetings since 2006 so maybe there were a lot of changes made before then.

Hi Hud, you will note that I stated quite clearly that is the fanatic behavior of certain members of AA.

These are real things I have heard over and over again, not in all meetings, certainly and as I am human and limited in space/time, I do not know what sample they represent.

But I sure have heard them a lot. And in NA meetings as well.

You tend to here them more from the members in the social settings outside the meetings, but I have heard them plenty of times in meetings. It might have something to do with some contact with a lot of recovering addicts, residential rehab, IOP rehab as well.

 

[qayak]

I have no doubt that increased binge drinking is true for virtually every relapse - AA or not.

You either have a comprehension problem or you are employing the same techniques fundamentalist religious groups use to defend their beliefs. Not sure which at this point.

Yup.

Employing fundamentalist group think, it is.

Except the World Health Organisation, the American Medical Association and other national authorities.

They are groups not evidence. The evidence used is pretty poor and you need to look at the drive to have these groups say this back in the day.

If the disease model is correct, why is their no medical treatment? Why are there no doctors overseeing A.A. meetings?

Would we expect Cancer Anonymous groups with people sitting around talking about their personal cancer experiences and, encouraging each other to just quit cancer, to have any effect on actually curing cancer?

Fantastic!
Let's have them: Studies, organisations, models and statistics.

Go through the Orange papers again and go through the links like I did. I am tired of having to do you work because you are too lazy to do it yourself.

The first part sounds right, the second not so much (could you point that out to me please - the bit about "no AA" without other sources).

Once again, go read. Their revenue comes from commercially run, alcohol treatment programs.

What is actually said in tradition seven is:
"Every AA group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions."

Just like a cult. The head makes a ****load of money while the individual cells struggle to operate. Why does the head need all that money if none of it trickles down?

Where is this said (bold)?
Finance isn't your area is it?
Slush funds and capital purchases are vastly different.

You mean like the properties they own and the copyrights they fight over?

Oh, and evidence please.

I had to find you stuff that was in your own bible Big Book. It is time to cut the apron strings and have you do your own research.

??

It means there are a lot of other untruths in A.A. that I wasn't listing at that point.

100%? I insist you support this ridiculous lie.

Do a little research, it becomes self evident if you actually read what others say and don't just follow A.A. indoctrination.

And even if this were true, so what? More people are getting sober and that's a good thing

That's not what that means . . . what it means is that A.A. is having NO EFFECT on the number of alcoholics. They are relying on spontaneous remission for their cures and then telling the vulnerable/gullible that A.A. is the be all and end all of treatment. That is outright fraud.

If someones' sobriety is rocked by the words of another, they are not taking full responsibility for themselves and their recovery . . .

I thought alcoholics were powerless against alcohol? It isn't the A.A. line to have them take responsibility, they are supposed to turn that over to their higher power.

 

[Rasmus]

If the disease model is correct, why is their no medical treatment? Why are there no doctors overseeing A.A. meetings?

Would we expect Cancer Anonymous groups with people sitting around talking about their personal cancer experiences and, encouraging each other to just quit cancer, to have any effect on actually curing cancer?

Also, we would expect treatments to actually work and we would expect them to improve. Even if it was not (yet) possible to cure the disease we would expect it to become easier to manage the disease as well as to live with it.

Look at pretty much any other disease and you'd see a development like this.

Also, if it was a disease, we would expect to see at least some explanation about it's development and the usual course the disease takes. Some explanation that is biological at its core.

 

[LizardLover]

From someone had substance problems and tried the AA/NA route, it is religious and despite what they tell you, they expect you to believe in "God". I went to my first AA meeting as NA meetings were very far and few inbetween in my city, and the AA people say they welcome anyone. Once you tell them you have a drug problem, they look at you weird, they can't understand how someone doing heroin or cocaine could have anything in common with them. Which to me, is completely ass backwards. You can do heroin, meth, cocaine and be hooked in a matter of weeks. To become a full blown alcoholic, you have to work at it for years and years, waking up in strange places, hangover after hangover, blackouts, etc to get yourself to the physical dependency that a hardcore user can get in a matter of weeks. Anyways, once they ostracize you a bit for not being a drunk, and let you into their circle, out comes the god. They "say" its ok, you can believe in anything you want or nothing at all, we're not pumping religion to you and try the "higher power can be anything you want" line, but say you're an atheist to the group, and you are ostracized even more! I went to maybe 50 meetings at different places over the city, hoping one would be more accepting and they weren't. NA finally started to pickup in my city, and I switched to that. Same crap, different initials. They don't push the religion as hard, but its still there. Also because with AA, the median age tends to be middle-age males, NA tends to be made up of a more diverse group and includes many more females, which turns it into some big wacked out dating game. You're clean, your penis is starting to work again for the first time in years and there are woman around who "know" what you're going through and everyone hooks up. Of course this always ends in failure because then their is two weak chains in a relationship, all it takes is one of you to justify using again and the other will usually go along in a second.

I am 11 years clean and I did it on my own, with the help of friends and support and nothing else. No methadone, no treatment place BS, no AA/NA, no pills, nothing. If you can't do it on your own, you are doomed to fail again because all you are doing is relying on crutches. If you are tempted to drink and the only thing that stopped you that day is going to a meeting, whats going to happen the next time its 4am, or your sponsor isn't home, or you're away on vacation. If you can't muster the strength to do it on your own, you will probably fail.

I'm not trying to say I'm superman, its hard, still 11 years later, I can take a drag of a cigarette and still swear I just tasted crack, smell some spoiled fruit and get a whiff of the decomp that smells almost like ether that is used in drug production, I watch people get high on intervention and it can make my heart race a little.

But I am clean, and sober and I have to thank GETTING AWAY from AA and NA for that. Staying there would have led me to probably getting high again just to deal with God everyday.

 

[Tinyal]

If you can't do it on your own, you are doomed to fail again because all you are doing is relying on crutches.

That's a very good statement Lizardlover, your statements were spot on (most especially on the AA/NA differences and similarities) - you're doing great!!

 

[R.A.F.]

Back in my drinking days, I was court ordered to attend AA following a DUI. When I told the AA leader that I was not at all a believer in any sort of "higher power", he told me, and this is a quote...

Fake it till you make it.

...in other words, it was fine to lie to myself, because "eventually"? I would believe.

AA is religion pure and simple, and forcing DUI offenders to attend is a violation of the separation of church and state...but like others, it was easier just to go along than to pay a ginormous fine/risk jail time.

..oh, and I quit drinking on my own...in the same manner that I quit smoking cigarettes.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

They are groups not evidence. The evidence used is pretty poor and you need to look at the drive to have these groups say this back in the day.

They would seem to me to be the ones best placed to make a decision - far better that you or me.
So what else do you have except your personal and unqualified opinion?

If the disease model is correct, why is their no medical treatment? Why are there no doctors overseeing A.A. meetings?

There is treatment - detox, rehab, maintenance.

Why are there no doctors in AA? I am incredulous you need to ask this actually. Because AA is voluntary mantenance.

Would we expect Cancer Anonymous groups with people sitting around talking about their personal cancer experiences and, encouraging each other to just quit cancer, to have any effect on actually curing cancer?

Would we expect chemotherapy for an ingrown toenail? Amputation for an ear ache? Psychiatry for a bladder infection?
Hardly - different treatments for different diseases is the obvious answer to this ridiculous point.

Go through the Orange papers again and go through the links like I did.

You claimed it, now prove it.

Seems (I know) you can't.

Once again, go read. Their revenue comes from commercially run, alcohol treatment programs.

Ditto above?

It means there are a lot of other untruths in A.A. that I wasn't listing at that point.

Hmm... compelling, thought provoking. I think you have just found a new a low in debating techniques.

I thought alcoholics were powerless against alcohol? It isn't the A.A. line to have them take responsibility, they are supposed to turn that over to their higher power.

And right here you prove you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

The powerlessness is over alcohol, not the rest of our lives.
Responsibility, self improvement, justice, integrity and honesty (there are more) are the types of values that are encouraged/suggested as part of the program of recovery.



So in summary

You don't know what you are talking about.
You make up lies, then either
- ask others to find the proof for themselves and/or;
- refer them to a one-mans-cruisade-against-AA website as evidence of what AA does, rather than provide actual 'source-evidence'.
And either way, your lies remain unsupported.

Noted.

And yes, now I am calling you a liar, of the unmitigated kind


The laughing dog is being readied for your future posts.

 

[Tinyal]

What part of 'powerless over alcohol & that our lives had become unmanageable' do you not understand AAAlfie?

It seems clear from your posts you don't understand the 'unmanageable' part, as that clearly doesn't refer to alcohol. From my personal attendance at 1000's of AA meetings over the years, as well as intensive study of core & archival AA material, I would say a significant majority of AA members sober 1 year or more (you know - the successful ones?) understand the 1st step to refer to much more than just alcohol - in fact, a solid majority understand it just the way Bill (actually, Shoemaker - though I don't expect you to know that, as there appears an awlful lot you dont' know about AA. This isn't surprising), their sponsors, and the group intended it.

I won't even bother attempting to teach you a bit about the steps, as I would suppose my running step study meetings & conferences for nearly a decade all over the country - by local & regional requests - wouldn't meet your need for me to be 'qualified'.

As for the rest of your post - no change from your previous ones. Bare assertions, half-truths, attacks on posters here, and lies.

Par for the course from cult members of any kind.





Whatever program you are practicing, if it works for you - go for it.

But it's not AA.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

What part of 'powerless over alcohol & that our lives had become unmanageable' do you not understand AAAlfie?

It seems clear from your posts you don't understand the 'unmanageable' part, as that clearly doesn't refer to alcohol. From my personal attendance at 1000's of AA meetings over the years, as well as intensive study of core & archival AA material, I would say a significant majority of AA members sober 1 year or more (you know - the successful ones?) understand the 1st step to refer to much more than just alcohol - in fact, a solid majority understand it just the way Bill (actually, Shoemaker - though I don't expect you to know that, as there appears an awlful lot you dont' know about AA. This isn't surprising), their sponsors, and the group intended it.

I won't even bother attempting to teach you a bit about the steps, as I would suppose my running step study meetings & conferences for nearly a decade all over the country - by local & regional requests - wouldn't meet your need for me to be 'qualified'.

As for the rest of your post - no change from your previous ones. Bare assertions, half-truths, attacks on posters here, and lies.

Par for the course from cult members of any kind.

Whatever program you are practicing, if it works for you - go for it.

But it's not AA.

Clearly you and I have differing unsderstandings: I too 'teach' the 12 and 12 (formally and informally), I too have done thousands and thousand of meetings,12 and 12 studies and read lots of literature (internal and external). The difference between you and me is you seem to really hate AA, (yet you still go) and I love AA including its failings.
Today I haven't had a drink, and today you haven't (presumably).

Qayak is a liar.
You and I differ in opinions.

AA can be done anyway one likes, you seem to think you are somehow unique that you reject religion and don't therefor do AA. Good for you. However I can assure you that you are not unique.

But the bottom line is, if it works for you, it works. And you keep going back!

 

[Belz...]

On the contary, anything can be ones higher power;

But this is just you playing with words. It's obvious what the intent of the term "higher power" as it relates to AA originally was. And it continues to be so. That individuals can "cheat" and place their faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't change the fact that AA is a Christian organisation.

 

[Belz...]

This is my thinking exactly..

What my advice is when people ask: Try everything. Try AA, therapy, cold turkey, anything and everything in whatever order you want. There's no tried and true way to quit. Different methods work for different people and none of them work all that well. But the more you try the better chance you'll find one that works.

That's nice. What does it have to do with AA being religious, again ?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

But this is just you playing with words. It's obvious what the intent of the term "higher power" as it relates to AA originally was. And it continues to be so. That individuals can "cheat" and place their faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't change the fact that AA is a Christian organisation.

Why then are atheists and agnostics like Tinyal accepted?
Why are Buddists?
Jews?
Moslems?
Hindus?
And any other we could care to name?

Sure, it was born of some Christian beliefs, but its 'teachings' are that of sobriety.

If it is indeed religious, what religion is it teaching when all these other believers and non-believers are equally included, welcomed and loved?

So, what religion is it?
And when answering that, tell me what religion in India, Pakistan, Nepal, South Africa, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, Singapore, Vietnam, Solomon Islands? and on and on I could go.

What religion is it?

 

[Dancing David]

Also, we would expect treatments to actually work and we would expect them to improve. Even if it was not (yet) possible to cure the disease we would expect it to become easier to manage the disease as well as to live with it.

Look at pretty much any other disease and you'd see a development like this.

Also, if it was a disease, we would expect to see at least some explanation about it's development and the usual course the disease takes. Some explanation that is biological at its core.

The disease model is bogus, what i would say is this:
-there are physical effects from alcohol use
-there are biological predispositions to alcohol abuse

BUT addictions are behavioral disorders.

 

[Dancing David]

They would seem to me to be the ones best placed to make a decision - far better that you or me.

Just like the Pope is qualified to define god.

So what else do you have except your personal and unqualified opinion?

Sorry AA Alfie, that does meet the criteria for Bigfoot, alien abduction and homeopathy.

That is not sciemce nor does it play science on TV, that is appeal to popular authority of a priviledged group.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Just like the Pope is qualified to define god.

Are you saying the medical groups and experts are unqualified to make this determination?

Sorry AA Alfie, that does meet the criteria for Bigfoot, alien abduction and homeopathy.

That would be Qayak's basis for comment it seems.

 

[Dancing David]

Are you saying the medical groups and experts are unqualified to make this determination?

that would depend on the determination, now wouldn't?
Attendance at AA meetings and binge drinking may have a correlation, that does not imply causation.

You show me the data and then we can decide if it is even a reasobaly high enough correlation

But just saying "medical groups and experts " is an appeal to authority, show me the data.

 

[stevea]

6) The plural of anecdotes is not evidence.
...
That everything you've said is wrong, point by point, and that you haven't read the thread.

I'll allow the other 5, but the plural of anecdote IS data, not evidence. Perhaps you should consider the difference.

 

[Belz...]

Participation in atheist dominated sites like this one gloss over the fact that the great majority of humans appear to have no problem with the possible existence of a higher power, and, if alcoholics, may find AA useful.

Yes, most people don't use critical thinking. Your point ?

 

[Belz...]

To the naysayers...it works.

If you dont agree with it, dont go.
Not that hard a concept.

The same can be said of alternative medecine, dangerous religious cults or other such things.

However, it is not an argument.

 

[Belz...]

As to a higher power, I'd suggest an atheist consider the parts of his mind that used to be termed subconcious as his "higher power"; using his conscious mind to the best of his abilities got him where he's finally decided he needs help with his alcoholism, which is actually help with living a rational life.

Word salad.

The unconscious mind is a decidedly LOWER power.