Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[Pup]

- The 12 steps are "suggested".

That can be taken two ways.

1) Believing in a higher power is only suggested. That's what makes AA a non-religious organization. For it to be a religious organization, believing in a higher power would need to be required for membership.

2) Believing in a higher power is suggested. That's what makes AA a religious organization. In non-religious organizations, there's no suggestion that atheists change their beliefs.

And yes, I know, doorknobs. But if we're using "higher power" in its normal sense...

 

[Hallo Alfie]

What it actually says is:
- "Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:"
then step 1, 2 etc etc

How would you read that?

 

[marplots]

There is another approach -- from the backside. Instead of thinking about what AA proposes and tells its membership, what would it take to get thrown out of AA? What would constitute heresy?

If you are an atheist, I don't think that would do it. What I'm getting at is what AA would view as a sin, or a action so counter to its purpose that expulsion would be the only remedy?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

There is another approach -- from the backside. Instead of thinking about what AA proposes and tells its membership, what would it take to get thrown out of AA? What would constitute heresy?

If you are an atheist, I don't think that would do it. What I'm getting at is what AA would view as a sin, or a action so counter to its purpose that expulsion would be the only remedy?

I have never ever ever ever ever, heard of anyone being expelled from AA. There is nothing in the traditions that allows for it. All are welcome.

It's true that when people turn up to groups with alcohol, or drunk (while they might be told to "shut up" sometimes) they will also be told "keep coming back".
Angry people who are starting out on sobrity are the norm. Tolerance and understanding is the key and that has been passed down over the decades. It is an extraordinary thing to see first hand.

We once had a couple of guys get into a heated argument in a meeting. One went out to get a knife. I personally sat with him in the meeting (I gently and quietly told him if he made one move I would take care of things myself) he calmed down. I told him to "keep coming back", he returned the next week and is now four years clean and sober and a sponsee of mine.

That sounds a bit too macho and egotistical, but I am a pretty big bloke, former bouncer and can take pretty good care of myself. I also like to think I helped calm him and he is on a good path these days.

There are millions more stories like that too.

AA naturally lets the police to rule over and enforce the laws of the land;
the only require for membership is a desire to stop drinking

 

[marplots]

the only require for membership is a desire to stop drinking

That might be it then. What I was after.

It isn't much of a religion in my eyes then. For me, what distinguishes a religion is an object of worship -- could be a concept or a supposed being of some sort. In that viewpoint, AA wouldn't be a religion, although it could still be a really creepy, cult-like, and even predatory club. (Could be, not necessarily is.)

I also think the point about religions not brooking the practice of other religions in their midst as a powerful discriminator. One does wonder how the group might react if you started your story with.... "And then I turned my life over to the power of Odin, and by Odin's command, I am able to maintain my sobriety. One day at a time; one day at a time."

 

[qayak]

It isn't much of a religion in my eyes then. For me, what distinguishes a religion is an object of worship -- could be a concept or a supposed being of some sort. In that viewpoint, AA wouldn't be a religion . . .

From Wikipedia:

Definition and usage

In current twelve-step program usage a Higher Power can be anything at all that the member believes is adequate. Reported examples include their twelve-step group, Nature, consciousness, existential freedom, God, science, gravity, Buddha. It is frequently stipulated that as long as a Higher Power is "greater" than the individual, then the only condition is that it should also be loving and caring.[5][6]

Alcoholics Anonymous

The terms 'Higher Power' and 'power greater than ourselves' appear in the "Big Book", on three occasions:

Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power.

Follow the dictates of a Higher Power and you will presently live in a new and wonderful world, no matter what your present circumstances!

There is little doubt that the A.A. higher power can't be anything other than a supernatural being, specifically, the christian god.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

That might be it then. What I was after.

It isn't much of a religion in my eyes then. For me, what distinguishes a religion is an object of worship -- could be a concept or a supposed being of some sort. In that viewpoint, AA wouldn't be a religion, although it could still be a really creepy, cult-like, and even predatory club. (Could be, not necessarily is.)

I also think the point about religions not brooking the practice of other religions in their midst as a powerful discriminator. One does wonder how the group might react if you started your story with.... "And then I turned my life over to the power of Odin, and by Odin's command, I am able to maintain my sobriety. One day at a time; one day at a time."

Odin or anything could be the higher power - no-one would care.

From Wikipedia:

There is little doubt that the A.A. higher power can't be anything other than a supernatural being, specifically, the christian god.

On the contary, anything can be ones higher power; even your cited definitions allow for that. E.g. "no other human being" is singular, the group/fellowship can be, which is the group plural.

I don't get why you guys can't understand, no-one cares what ones higher power is, no-one even wants to know.

btw, I have never seen the term " Follow the dictates of a Higher Power and you will presently live in a new and wonderful world, no matter what your present circumstances!" And I wonder where Wiki got it.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

That might be it then. What I was after.

It isn't much of a religion in my eyes then. For me, what distinguishes a religion is an object of worship -- could be a concept or a supposed being of some sort. In that viewpoint, AA wouldn't be a religion, although it could still be a really creepy, cult-like, and even predatory club. (Could be, not necessarily is.)

The only object of worship for AA is the desire to obtain and maintain a sober life. (This to me is the "primary purpose" or goal, rather than worship).

 

[Manopolus]

I've been to local AA meetings and have gotten the impression that some locals do think that it has worked for them.

I, however, was there as a result of court proceedings. I have had 2 DUIs. Here's the thing... on your second DUI they have a tendency to assume that you are a severe alcoholic. I not only had to attend AA meetings, but go through a lengthy program at the mental health center, as well.

Considering that I only drink about 10 nights out of every year, tops, at this time of my life, and that I have made no conscious effort to cut down on my drinking... I still think the diagnosis was way off. I drank a bit more back in those times (over 10 years ago, and still in college), but even then I was at worst a weekend binge drinker... and not even every weekend, at that.

Anyway, I don't want to insult those who think it works for them, but I came away with the impression that it consisted of about 95% bull, with the other 5% being hype (about how great AA is). Then again, I always considered myself an outsider and have never felt anything resembling an overwhelming urge to drink (and I know what addiction feels like... I smoke like a chimney).

I got asked to leave both the AA meetings and the other addiction program more than once due to actually expressing my sincere view of the situation, but managed to calm things down enough that I was able to get through it to satisfy the court.

Although I am not fond of AA in general, I will have to admit that the meetings I attended weren't particularly religious in nature. Yes, some people expressed their "faith in God" and whatnot, but there were others who came right out and said that they were atheists as well. Relgions were expressed, but there was no consensus on religion. Actually most of those in this group weren't particularly religious. It might be interesting to note that there are 2 AA groups in this town (pop. 25,000) and this was the one that didn't meet in a church (the other one did). I suspect that the two groups were greatly different.

 

[qayak]

On the contary, anything can be ones higher power; even your cited definitions allow for that. E.g. "no other human being" is singular, the group/fellowship can be, which is the group plural.

You are really stretching this. No other human being means just that, no other human being. That rules out every other human being singular or plural.

The higher power can't be an inanimate object as many claim. Inanimate objects don't dictate how you should live nor are they loving and compassionate.

I don't get why you guys can't understand, no-one cares what ones higher power is, no-one even wants to know.

12&12 already knows.

From great numbers of such experiences, we could predict that the doubter who still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name.

Also from 12&12:

Like all the remaining Steps, Step Three calls for affirmative action, for it is only by action that we can cut away the self-will which has always blocked the entry of God -- or, if you like, a Higher Power -- into our lives.

This here specifically says that it is God, or condescendingly, a Higher Power. Notice how both are capitalized?

And I care and want to know. The claim is that the program doesn't work without a higher power and yet, without the higher power, all the A.A. claims are untrue, ie.- People really do have control over their lives and alcohol. People really can kick the habit on their own. Etc.

That higher power thing is important.

btw, I have never seen the term " Follow the dictates of a Higher Power and you will presently live in a new and wonderful world, no matter what your present circumstances!" And I wonder where Wiki got it.

Big Book page 100, Working With Others

 

[marplots]

There is little doubt that the A.A. higher power can't be anything other than a supernatural being, specifically, the christian god.

Even with the condition that it be a supernatural being (which is in dispute here in the thread) doesn't it seem odd that you could be worshiping Jesus and the guy next to you Satan and the gal across the room "The Divine Earth Mother Gaia?"

It just doesn't seem like a religion to me. Reading AAlfie, it seems like the object of worship is sobriety, or maybe the group meme coupled with that.

I wonder if you could set the two ideas at odds -- something like, "My higher power is, and always has been Bacchus. He wants me to drink."

From what I've read here, AA will accept atheists or even a whole group, but will not accept someone who doesn't wish to stop drinking.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

You are really stretching this. No other human being means just that, no other human being. That rules out every other human being singular or plural.

In your opinion, others think differently and have applied this "stretch" to suit their own needs. Such is the nature of AA - it is completely flexible.
By the way, where is that quote from?

The higher power can't be an inanimate object as many claim. Inanimate objects don't dictate how you should live nor are they loving and compassionate.

Why can't the group or nature be loving or compassionate?
Why can't one be guided by a set of personal values, that for too long have been rubbery?


The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking

And I care and want to know. The claim is that the program doesn't work without a higher power and yet, without the higher power, all the A.A. claims are untrue, ie.- People really do have control over their lives and alcohol. People really can kick the habit on their own. Etc.

We have one member contributing to this thread who has rejected religion and a higher power, yet has managed to stay sober for > 20 years. He is the living personification that AA works without a higher power and the program is completely flexible to the individuals needs.

Big Book page 100, Working With Others

Thanks

eta: Those other bb extracts are again, one man's opinions why do you keep rolling them out. They are his story, his experiences, his beliefs? The Big Book is a wonderful tool, but does not have the last word on anyone's recovery.

I and my disease dictate to me how I use the program, no-one and/or nothing else.

 

[qayak]

From what I've read here, AA will accept atheists or even a whole group, but will not accept someone who doesn't wish to stop drinking.

Accept atheists?

For the time being, we who were atheist or agnostic discovered that our own group, or A.A. as a whole, would suffice as a higher power. 12&12, pg. 107

From great numbers of such experiences, we could predict that the doubter who still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name. 12&12, pg. 109

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Accept atheists?

For the time being, we who were atheist or agnostic discovered that our own group, or A.A. as a whole, would suffice as a higher power. 12&12, pg. 107

From great numbers of such experiences, we could predict that the doubter who still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name. 12&12, pg. 109

And I repeat, this is one man's experience and opinion.

Additionally, the Big Book was written very early in the collective experience of AA, and it has evolved. Bill never intended his writings to be the final word: He was sharing his "experience strength and hope", as an AA member does everytime they share with another.

 

[qayak]

In your opinion, others think differently and have applied this "stretch" to suit their own needs. Such is the nature of AA - it is completely flexible.
By the way, where is that quote from?

From the book 12 Steps and 12 Traditions on the A.A. site.

Why can't the group or nature be loving or compassionate?

Let's disregard the group because we dispute whether they can be a higher power but nature can't be because nature can't dictate how you live your life and nature is not loving and caring, it doesn't care who, or what, lives or dies.

Why can't one be guided by a set of personal values, that for too long have been rubbery?

That's my question? Why does a higher power have to dictate? It's A.A. that says you are powerless not me.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking

Well, not really. You have to believe in the twelve step program as set down by the founder of A.A. Otherwise, you would be free to go in and contradict everything they say with evidence.

We have one member contributing to this thread who has rejected religion and a higher power, yet has managed to stay sober for > 20 years. He is the living personification that AA works without a higher power and the program is completely flexible to the individuals needs.

That's one way to spin it. It just might be that A.A. doesn't work and he quit drinking by himself without any help. Millions do.

Also, A.A. says the program doesn't work without a higher power. Apparently they are wrong.

I and my disease dictate to me how I use the program, no-one and/or nothing else.

Glad to hear it and I am not trying to take anything away from you. In fact, I am trying to say that the credit for any success you have is yours. You do the work, you go through the rough patches and you ultimately succeed or fail. You pay the price for the slips and you should get the credit for the successes.

 

[marplots]

qayak, I found a link to a list of atheist and agnostic AA meetings. I do not know how accurate it is: http://www.agnosticaanyc.org/worldwide.html

 

[qayak]

qayak, I found a link to a list of atheist and agnostic AA meetings. I do not know how accurate it is: http://www.agnosticaanyc.org/worldwide.html

Now that I like!

 

[Manopolus]

qayak, I found a link to a list of atheist and agnostic AA meetings. I do not know how accurate it is: http://www.agnosticaanyc.org/worldwide.html

I especially liked this listing:

Godless Heathens
El Cerrito Fellowship
11157 San Pablo Ave.
Sunday 10:30 a.m.
El Cerrito, CA

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Well, not really. You have to believe in the twelve step program as set down by the founder of A.A. Otherwise, you would be free to go in and contradict everything they say with evidence.

No, wrong.
The steps are suggested, the big book is his experience strength and hope.
You can go in and contradict it, I have seen it time and again. People don't give a **** what you believe in. As long as you want to get and stay sober and are having a go, that is all that matters.

That's one way to spin it. It just might be that A.A. doesn't work and he quit drinking by himself without any help. Millions do.

And millions more do with fellowship - that is the real key in my opinion.

Also, A.A. says the program doesn't work without a higher power. Apparently they are wrong.

Again, wrong - the program doesn't say it (although it does "suggest" it). Other members may say it, the founders said it too, but it is not a prerequisite for recovery; a mere "suggestion".

Glad to hear it and I am not trying to take anything away from you. In fact, I am trying to say that the credit for any success you have is yours. You do the work, you go through the rough patches and you ultimately succeed or fail. You pay the price for the slips and you should get the credit for the successes.

Correct, I have done the work, but I had heaps of help and I needed it all.

Alone I have to do it, but I don't have to do it alone.

Now that I like!

See?!

Edited by Tricky: 

Edited for rule 10.

 

[ArchieGoodwin]

(snip)
Glad to hear it and I am not trying to take anything away from you. In fact, I am trying to say that the credit for any success you have is yours. You do the work, you go through the rough patches and you ultimately succeed or fail. You pay the price for the slips and you should get the credit for the successes.

This may be true but for me would be a dangerous way to think. It is a very short step from:

I did it I deserve the credit!

to:

Hey, I can control my drinking! 1 or 2 after work today won't hurt me, I got the willpower to handle it now...