Oakland rules on pot

[bit_pattern]

Medical marijuana should be legalized just as soon as they can breed out that really bad side affect, intoxication.

Oddly, I don't hear many people pushing for research into intoxication-free pot...

There's been plenty of attempts (marinol comes to mind) and all of them are next useless. In some cases, like appetite loss for cancer patients, the high IS the medicinal quality.

 

[WildCat]

Bwahahahaha! You're getting burnt at those prices, Fat Freddy!

What's the price where you are, and what are the potential penalties if caught growing/traffiking it?

My theory is the price is directly proportional to the penalty, in the US it means prison plus confiscation of your property.

 

[marplots]

If google isn't lying to me, an ounce is 28 grams. I take the trip to Holland once a week and buy 5 grams (the max technically allowed to be sold to one person) and that is enough for a week for me.

Well, I guess I've argued myself into growing my own. At $75 a week, I would go to a lot of trouble. Even now, I'm rolling my own tobacco (I don't grow it) to get my net down to about $1.25 a pack for my nicotine addiction. So, it looks like there would be a segment of the population who would grow -- me.

On the other hand, as things move into the legal realm, don't the associated rules, regulations and taxes often make it pseudo-illegal for home growers? Is this where Oakland is headed? The line is usually one of regulation in commerce, but I understood, when I had chickens, that I was required to test for salmonella on the eggs, even if I wasn't selling them.

 

[Fishstick]

Well, I guess I've argued myself into growing my own. At $75 a week, I would go to a lot of trouble. Even now, I'm rolling my own tobacco (I don't grow it) to get my net down to about $1.25 a pack for my nicotine addiction. So, it looks like there would be a segment of the population who would grow -- me.

On the other hand, as things move into the legal realm, don't the associated rules, regulations and taxes often make it pseudo-illegal for home growers? Is this where Oakland is headed? The line is usually one of regulation in commerce, but I understood, when I had chickens, that I was required to test for salmonella on the eggs, even if I wasn't selling them.

The laws are convoluted and ridiculous. For example in Belgium it is "permitted" to carry up to 3grams with you, which is considered personal use. However you cannot sell, buy or import it. You are also permitted to have one (1) marijuana plant per family member - but not in a professional growing setup. What that boils down to is that you can have a plant, but once you add a light or a water drip it becomes illegal.

 

[quadraginta]

Well, I guess I've argued myself into growing my own. At $75 a week, I would go to a lot of trouble. Even now, I'm rolling my own tobacco (I don't grow it) to get my net down to about $1.25 a pack for my nicotine addiction. So, it looks like there would be a segment of the population who would grow -- me.

<snip>

I need your help.

Where do you live? What brand of tobacco are you buying? (Do you roll really small cigarettes? )

I get the equivalent of about two and a half packs (~50 smokes) out of a 1.3 oz. pouch of tobacco. After last year's tax hike the Fed's hit on that alone is about a buck a pack. I usually smoke Bali Shag (admittedly not the cheapest brand) but I pre-order large quantities from a supplier whom I've known for years and who gives me all the discount he can stand. I'm still spending more than twice what you are.

 

[marplots]

I need your help.

Where do you live? What brand of tobacco are you buying? (Do you roll really small cigarettes? )

I get the equivalent of about two and a half packs (~50 smokes) out of a 1.3 oz. pouch of tobacco. After last year's tax hike the Fed's hit on that alone is about a buck a pack. I usually smoke Bali Shag (admittedly not the cheapest brand) but I pre-order large quantities from a supplier whom I've known for years and who gives me all the discount he can stand. I'm still spending more than twice what you are.

I live in Michigan. I buy what is sold as pipe tobacco (shredded, menthol, higher moisture content) for about $22 a pound. I use tubes and a rolling machine (had it for at least a year -- initial outlay $50). I walk out of the tobacco store after spending about $30 with enough supplies for about 3 cartons of 100s.

I am not counting my labor. A conservative estimate would be about a half-hour a day spent rolling cigarettes while watching TV or listening to the radio. Practically, this amounts to a full hour, every other day.

The key dodge in my setup is buying tobacco sold as 'pipe' tobacco. It doesn't have the same taxes as loose cigarette tobacco. I think everyone knows what's going on, but for now, it is legal. On occasion, I have to dry the tobacco a bit before it gives a good quality cigarette (good quality being something of a misnomer here). So I might microwave a handful and stick it in front of a fan (or dehumidifier, I run both in the house anyhow) for a few minutes to reduce the moisture content and make it easier to roll.

All that said, it is an addiction and there are costs above and beyond the mere $$. I'm just a cheapskate.

 

[quadraginta]

I live in Michigan. I buy what is sold as pipe tobacco (shredded, menthol, higher moisture content) for about $22 a pound. I use tubes and a rolling machine (had it for at least a year -- initial outlay $50). I walk out of the tobacco store after spending about $30 with enough supplies for about 3 cartons of 100s.

I am not counting my labor. A conservative estimate would be about a half-hour a day spent rolling cigarettes while watching TV or listening to the radio. Practically, this amounts to a full hour, every other day.

The key dodge in my setup is buying tobacco sold as 'pipe' tobacco. It doesn't have the same taxes as loose cigarette tobacco. I think everyone knows what's going on, but for now, it is legal. On occasion, I have to dry the tobacco a bit before it gives a good quality cigarette (good quality being something of a misnomer here). So I might microwave a handful and stick it in front of a fan (or dehumidifier, I run both in the house anyhow) for a few minutes to reduce the moisture content and make it easier to roll.

All that said, it is an addiction and there are costs above and beyond the mere $$. I'm just a cheapskate.

Pipe tobacco.



Yeah, that would be the difference. $24.78/lb. worth, just for starters.

I suppose it may come to that, but so far I'm still rolling my own as much because of the quality of the tobacco as anything else, and the quality of purpose-made handrolling tobacco is orders of magnitude above anything I've found offered for pipes. Even the cut of the tobacco is a significant difference.

It's possible that my addiction will overcome my taste. That remains to be seen. It might spur me to abandon the habit.

I don't even consider the labor. I can outroll anyone using any hand operated machine, easily. The practice has become almost as much of a habit as smoking the damned things. Watching TV? Sure. Reading a book, walking down the street, contemplating the next line of this post. Pretty much any time, as long as my hands are free. Daylight or nighttime. It can be pitch black. I don't even need to look. Half a minute, tops. Rain can be a problem, but it has to be pretty hard rain. (My crews used to hate that. I'd tell them we'd knock off work when it was raining too hard for me to roll a cigarette, and they knew they weren't gonna get off early. )

The downside is that handrolling doesn't discourage my habit or even slow it down because of any 'inconvenience'.

 

[marplots]

At one time I found I was quite a brand loyal smoker. Economics led me to generics and subgenerics and then rollies. My experience has been that it takes one or two days before I no longer notice any difference. The first few are rough though.

 

[quadraginta]

At one time I found I was quite a brand loyal smoker. Economics led me to generics and subgenerics and then rollies. My experience has been that it takes one or two days before I no longer notice any difference. The first few are rough though.

I think this may be where the "quality" thing comes in. In just about every instance the people who smoke factory-mades that try one of my cigarettes are stunned by how mild they taste compared to, say, a Marlboro Light. Then they get surprised again when they get a nicotine rush they can actually feel. On the other hand, I can barely tolerate smoking theirs, and feel nothing for the suffering.

 

[marplots]

Yeah I get you. I'm like that with coffee. But for cigarettes, I'm smoking all the quality I can afford.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Exactly.

I think many from the pro-legalization crowd miss the point when we say that growing it will be too easy and far more convenient, and frankly the only option for some, due to it being heavily taxed. The general response is something like, "well I could technically grow my own tomatoes-- but it's far more convenient to just buy it from the grocery store."

I don't think that's a valid analogy considering it ignores the grand amount of tax we're talking here.

How much would a gram cost with the suggested taxes?

One doesn't need to smoke much of that stuff to have an evening of intoxication.

 

[bit_pattern]

It's really not as difficult as you make it out to be. If you can grow tomatos, you can grow marijuana.

And if it's legal you don't need to grow indoors, you can grow outdoors using the sun as a light source. The sun, btw, is many times more luminous than any artificial light surce.

Maybe you could fool a few people into thinking that indoor-grown is better for a little while, but that myth would get busted pretty quickly. A properly tended outdoor crop will be superior to anything grown indoors, because no electric light can compete with the sun. Outdoor marijuana gets a bad rap now because the plants cannot be tended to properly because doing so greatly increases the risk of getting caught. No such risk is present if it were legal.

LOL, you've never actually grown weed have you?

Nike sells $5 sneakers for $250, tobacco production costs are far lower than what it sells for in the shop, there are plenty more examples. There is no reason why it can't be regulated and taxed in the same way that alcohol and tobacco is currently.

What's the price where you are, and what are the potential penalties if caught growing/traffiking it?

My theory is the price is directly proportional to the penalty, in the US it means prison plus confiscation of your property.

Growing tobacco unlicensed is also a federal offence that comes with hefty tax avoidance penalties, there is no reason why such a system couldn't apply to marijuana.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I've just returned from Italy where some farmers sell wine in the following manner:
You bring your empty soft drink bottles to them and they fill the bottles with good wine for about two Euro a piece.

I suspect such operations would also arise for weed if the official product became too expensive.

 

[WildCat]

LOL, you've never actually grown weed have you?

What on earth makes you think it's difficult?

Nike sells $5 sneakers for $250, tobacco production costs are far lower than what it sells for in the shop, there are plenty more examples. There is no reason why it can't be regulated and taxed in the same way that alcohol and tobacco is currently.

Most of the price of those Nike sneakers is the cost to have some athlete's name on them. Let the suckers buy those, I don't pay more than $35 for shoes.

Growing tobacco unlicensed is also a federal offence that comes with hefty tax avoidance penalties, there is no reason why such a system couldn't apply to marijuana.

I don't think tobacco growers need a license in the US.

 

[excaza]

LOL, you've never actually grown weed have you?

You know, they call it weed for a reason. It's a weed, and it grows like one.

 

[bit_pattern]

^^ Yeah, and when yopu grow it like a weed you get 'weed' like qualities from the plant, ie. stringy, low quality product that isn't worth smoking. To get high quality flowers, with high THc content, it requires a LOT more care and attention.

What on earth makes you think it's difficult?

Trial and error It's not rocket science, sure, but growing high quality weed requires a certain commitment beyond that of your average recreational stoner (in the same way that people are more prepared to buy packaged beer at much higher prices than brewing it themselves because they value the convenience), and there is a reason why hydroponic weed is of far greater quality, growing outdoors can be subject to unpredictable conditions that can lead, for instance, to a significant reduction in trichrome coverage. I know that, as a busy professional, if I smoked weed I'd be prepared to pay a premium for high quality weed that I didn't have to waste time, money and space to spend 3-4 months growing, followed by another 2 month minimum curing. I'd be much more happy to walk into a licensed venue that took a % as government tax.

Most of the price of those Nike sneakers is the cost to have some athlete's name on them. Let the suckers buy those, I don't pay more than $35 for shoes.

Yeah, but you won't get those nice Nike's. Just like how premium Humboldt strains are sold for 10-20 times the price of Mexican brick-weed, if you don't want to pay for quality then I'm sure someone will have some crap out the back to sell you.

I don't think tobacco growers need a license in the US.

Fair enough, it's a crime in Australia, in fact we've outsourced ALL tobacco production to China over the last ten years. But selling tobacco to evade federal excise, which make up the vast bulk of tobacco costs, brings the full weight of federal law and there is no reason why that couldn't apply to weed. And tobacco is no harder to grow than anything else, yet people still spend billions every year for the convenience of using fully taxable, legal, prepacked products.

 

[WildCat]

To get high quality flowers, with high THc content, it requires a LOT more care and attention.

It really doesn't. Anyone can grow top-quality marijuana, and it will be even better grown outdoors in full sun.

But if you want to continue to buy the plant equivalent of the $300 gym shoe (too bad Peter Tosh isn't still around to advertise it), that's your personal business.

 

[WildCat]

And tobacco is no harder to grow than anything else, yet people still spend billions every year for the convenience of using fully taxable, legal, prepacked products.

Tobacco requires much, much, more room to grow than marijuana. Consider that an ounce of tobacco lasts a typical smoker 1 day, whereas an ounce of marijuana lasts a typical pot smoker for months. Which means you have to grow 60 times the amount of tobacco, so you'll need that much more space to do so. And most people don't have that much space. And I'm not even considering the far more complicated curing process for tobacco, which also requires lots of space.

All you need to grow a years supply of marijuana is 30ft² of garden space.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Tobacco requires much, much, more room to grow than marijuana. Consider that an ounce of tobacco lasts a typical smoker 1 day, whereas an ounce of marijuana lasts a typical pot smoker for months. Which means you have to grow 60 times the amount of tobacco, so you'll need that much more space to do so..

This depends on the percent of the plant that you smoke.

 

[bit_pattern]

It really doesn't. Anyone can grow top-quality marijuana, and it will be even better grown outdoors in full sun.

No, it won't. The sun doesn't shine for 24 hours, which is the optimum light level for young plants, and even in the middle of summer the sun rarely shines for 18 hours uninterrupted without cloud cover or wind and rain that knock trichromes from the plant, nor will plants in a grow room be eaten by wildlife etc . I'm not saying that you can't grow good weed outdoors, but indoors is much easier because you have optimal conditions that are next to impossible to recreate in the wild. Also, outdoor crops are time and labour intensive, they generally take twice as long to finish as an indoor crop (you can't dictate how many hours the sun shines for in the real world, you can in a grow room, and the plant reacts to day lengths) and require a lot of work every year to prepare the soil (because no matter how good the genes, any plant will succeed or fail on the basis of soil quality. Also, when growing under lights, it is possible to target the plant with particular light spectrum's that make particular growth period much more efficient, another thing you can't do with the sun.

But, I digress, this is all getting a long way from the original point. There will always be a market for relatively expensive weed, it is a myth to suggest that once legalised that everyone will start growing their own and there should be just as much scope for tax revenue from pot as there is from other legal intoxicants. Take Volstead for instance, a large reason for repeal was to get excise revenue from the sale of alcohol, and this was a time when "alky cookers" were a dime a dozen, entire inner-city neighbourhoods were converted into distilleries to meet the Prohibition market. And even after Volstead was repealed the illegal hooch continued to flow, for some time, but eventually the market lost it's appeal and the bootleggers abandoned it to legal distillers who could operate more efficiently and quench America's thirst at much more competitive prices. The same thing would eventually happen in a legal pot market, sure people could continue to grow their own, but as an abundance of relatively competitively priced, high quality product, would make all the time and labour that goes into growing high quality weed an unattractive option to just buying prepackeged, government taxed product, just like we do every day at liquor stores.

Tobacco requires much, much, more room to grow than marijuana. Consider that an ounce of tobacco lasts a typical smoker 1 day, whereas an ounce of marijuana lasts a typical pot smoker for months. Which means you have to grow 60 times the amount of tobacco, so you'll need that much more space to do so. And most people don't have that much space. And I'm not even considering the far more complicated curing process for tobacco, which also requires lots of space.

All you need to grow a years supply of marijuana is 30ft² of garden space.

I dunno about anyone else, but an oz of tobacco last about the same time as an oz of weed. An oz of tobacco would last me a week, at least, and when i'm smoking weed heavily an oz would be lucky to last a week and a half, maybe two weeks if I ration it.

ETA: Actually, I'm thinking of a 2-oz pouch of tobacco, my bad, but I still couldn't smoke an oz of tobacco in a day, that would make me sick as a dog.