Debunk Alert: Experiment to Test for Eutectic Reaction

[Christopher7]

Actually, NIST did mention it, but C7 appears to be ignoring that very easily verifiable fact.

NIST did NOT mention Sample #1 [from WTC 7] in the final report on WTC 7. NIST mentioned the samples but did NOT explain how they melted in the Final report on the TT. They just described what happened to Sample #2.

 

[Senenmut]

NIST did NOT mention Sample #1 [from WTC 7] in the final report on WTC 7. NIST mentioned the samples but did NOT explain how they melted in the Final report on the TT. They just described what happened to Sample #2.

im pretty sure the nist just referred the reader to the fema bpat report regarding the wtc 7 sample.

quick question. maybe you know this off the top of your head. did the towers just use HSLA steel? or did they use A36 and HSLA?

what about wtc 7......did they use only A36?

 

[grandmastershek]

Science is something that can be verified by experiment. NIST made no attempt to explain the collapse. Their conclusion is conjecture, not science.

None of these articles proved HOW the collapse occurred in a scientific way. They were all conjecture like the NIST report.


Hush-a-boom is a cute JREF term. My point has always been that noise levels can be reduced.

well if you keep saying it, it will become true.

 

[R.Mackey]

No, it was certainly Bentham. In fact, as you well know, Bentham's editor QUIT after s/he found out that stuff was being published that the EDITOR had never seen! Bentham also spams people to do their "peer-review" that have no qualifications in that field, and also ask people to write papers they have no education on. Bentham is in fact a SHAM journal.

Just in case there was any remaining doubt, the Bentham Open Chemical Physics Journal is completely defunct after the ridiculous nanothermite conspiracy paper hit it. The entire 2009 volume contains only three other articles, and all three combined are shorter than Dr. Jones's crazy ramble.

There is no 2010 volume.

We've discovered one positive effect of the Truth Movement: It killed a vanity journal masquerading as science for us.

By the way, everyone, please stop arguing with the leftover Truthers. You and I both know they are medically incapable of changing their minds.

 

[Christopher7]

Performance based structural fire engineering for modern building design
Rini, D., Lamont, S. 2008 Proceedings of the 2008 Structures Congress - Structures Congress 2008: Crossing the Borders 314

Engineering perspective of the collapse of WTC-I
Irfanoglu, A., Hoffmann, C.M. 2008 Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities 22 (1),

Collapse of towers as applied to September 11 events
Cherepanov, G.P. 2008 Materials Science 44 (4), pp. 489-499

Modeling pre-evacuation delay by occupants in World Trade Center Towers 1 and 2 on September 11, 2001
Kuligowski, E.D., Mileti, D.S. 2008 Fire Safety Journal

World Trade Center building disaster: Stimulus for innovations
Kodur, V.K.R. 2008 Indian Concrete Journal 82 (1), pp. 23-31

A collective undergraduate class project reconstructing the September 11, 2001 world trade center fire
Marshall, A., Quintiere, J. 2007 ASEE Annual Conference and Exposition, Conference Proceedings

"A new era": The limits of engineering expertise in a post-9/11 world
Pfatteicher, S.K.A. 2007 International Symposium on Technology and Society, Proceedings, art. no. 4362228

Progressive collapse of the World Trade Center: Simple analysis
Seffen, K.A. 2008 Journal of Engineering Mechanics 134 (2), pp. 125-132

Scale modeling of the 96th floor of world trade center tower 1
Wang, M., Chang, P., Quintiere, J., Marshall, A. 2007 Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities 21 (6), pp. 414-421

Failure of welded floor truss connections from the exterior wall during collapse of the world trade center towers
Banovic, S.W., Siewert, T.A. 2007 Welding Journal (Miami, Fla) 86 (9), pp. 263-s-272-s

The collapse of the world trade center towers: A metallurgist's view
Gayle, F.W. 2007 MRS Bulletin 32 (9), pp. 710-716

Building code changes reflect world trade center investigation
Hansen, B. 2007 Civil Engineering 77 (9), pp. 22+24-25

Fire load in a steel building design
Razdolsky, L. 2008 Proceedings of the 4th International Structural Engineering and Construction Conference, ISEC-4 - Innovations in Structural Engineering and Construction 2, pp. 1163-1167

The structural steel of the World Trade Center towers
Gayle, F.W., Banovic, S.W., Foecke, T., Fields, R.J., Luecke, W.E., McColskey, J.D., McCown, C., Siewert, T.A. 2006 Journal of Failure Analysis and Prevention 6 (5), pp. 5-8

Progressive collapse of structures: Annotated bibliography and comparison of codes and standards
Mohamed, O.A. 2006 Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities 20 (4), art. no. 001604QCF, pp. 418-425

A simple model of the World Trade Center fireball dynamics
Baum, H.R., Rehm, R.G., Quintiere, J.G. 2005 Proceedings of the Combustion Institute 30 II, pp. 2247-2254

Impact of the Boeing 767 Aircraft into the World Trade Center
Karim, M.R., Hoo Fatt, M.S. 2005 Journal of Engineering Mechanics 131 (10), pp. 1066-1072

High-fidelity simulation of large-scale structures
Hoffmann, C., Sameh, A., Grama, A. 2005 Lecture Notes in Computer Science 3515 (II), pp. 664-671

Collapses of the world trade center towers
[No author name available] 2005 Indian Concrete Journal 79 (8), pp. 11-16

Industry updates: Fireproofing, staircases cited in World Trade Center report
[No author name available] 2005 Journal of Failure Analysis and Prevention 5 (4), pp. 34

September 11 and fracture mechanics - A retrospective
Cherepanov, G.P. 2005 International Journal of Fracture 132 (2), pp. L25-L26

Structural responses of World Trade Center under aircraft attacks
Omika, Y., Fukuzawa, E., Koshika, N., Morikawa, H., Fukuda, R. 2005 Journal of Structural Engineering 131 (1), pp. 6-15

Impact of the 2001 World Trade Center attack on critical interdependent infrastructures
Mendonça, D., Lee II, E.E., Wallace, W.A. 2004 Conference Proceedings - IEEE International Conference on Systems, Man and Cybernetics 5, pp. 4053-4058

Use of high-efficiency energy absorbing device to arrest progressive collapse of tall building
Zhou, Q., Yu, T.X. 2004 Journal of Engineering Mechanics 130 (10), pp. 1177-1187

Progressive analysis procedure for progressive collapse
Marjanishvili, S.M. 2004 Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities 18 (2), pp. 79-85

Lessons learned on improving resistance of buildings to terrorist attacks
Corley, W.G. 2004 Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities 18 (2), pp. 68-78

Anatomy of a disaster: A structural investigation of the World Trade Center collapses
Abboud, N., Levy, M., Tennant, D., Mould, J., Levine, H., King, S., Ekwueme, C., (...), Hart, G. 2003 Forensic Engineering, Proceedings of the Congress, pp. 360-370

World Trade Center disaster: Damage/debris assessment
Thater, G.G., Panariello, G.F., Cuoco, D.A. 2003 Forensic Engineering, Proceedings of the Congress, pp. 383-392

How did the WTC towers collapse: A new theory
Usmani, A.S., Chung, Y.C., Torero, J.L. 2003 Fire Safety Journal 38 (6), pp. 501-533

Microstructural analysis of the steels from Buildings 7, & 1 or 2 from the World Trade Center
Biederman, R.R., Sullivan, E.M., Sisson Jr., R.D., Vander Voort, G.F. 2003 Microscopy and Microanalysis 9 (SUPPL. 2), pp. 550-551

Brannigan, F.L.
"WTC: Lightweight Steel and High-Rise Buildings"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 4, (2002): 145-150.

Analysis of the thermal exposure in the impact areas of the World Trade Center terrorist attacks
Beyler, C., White, D., Peatross, M., Trellis, J., Li, S., Luers, A., Hopkins, D. 2003 Forensic Engineering, Proceedings of the Congress, pp. 371-382

Clifton, Charles G.
Elaboration on Aspects of the Postulated Collapse of the World Trade Centre Twin Towers
HERA: Innovation in Metals. 2001. 13 December 2001.

"Construction and Collapse Factors"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002): 106-108.

Bazant, Z.P., & Zhou, Y.
"Addendum to 'Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? - Simple Analysis" (pdf)
Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 3, (2002): 369-370.

Corbett, G.P.
"Learning and Applying the Lessons of the WTC Disaster"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002.): 133-135.

"Dissecting the Collapses"
Civil Engineering ASCE v. 72, no. 5, (2002): 36-46.

Eagar, T.W., & Musso, C.
"Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation"
JOM v. 53, no. 12, (2001): 8-12.

Federal Emergency Management Agency, Therese McAllister, report editor.
World Trade Center Building Performance Study: Data Collection, Preliminary Observations, and Recommendations
(also available on-line)

Gabrielson, T.B., Poese, M.E., & Atchley, A.A.
"Acoustic and Vibration Background Noise in the Collapsed Structure of the World Trade Center"
The Journal of Acoustical Society of America v. 113, no. 1, (2003): 45-48.

"Collapse Lessons"
Fire Engineering v. 155, no. 10, (2002): 97-103

Marechaux, T.G.
"TMS Hot Topic Symposium Examines WTC Collapse and Building Engineering"
JOM, v. 54, no. 4, (2002): 13-17.

Monahan, B.
"World Trade Center Collapse-Civil Engineering Considerations"
Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction v. 7, no. 3, (2002): 134-135.

Newland, D.E., & Cebon, D.
"Could the World Trade Center Have Been Modified to Prevent Its Collapse?"
Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 7, (2002):795-800.

National Instititue of Stamdards and Technology: Congressional and Legislative Affairs
“Learning from 9/11: Understanding the Collapse of the World Trade Center”
Statement of Dr. Arden L. Bement, Jr., before Committee of Science House of Representatives, United States Congress on March 6, 2002.

Pinsker, Lisa, M.
"Applying Geology at the World Trade Center Site"
Geotimes v. 46, no. 11, (2001).
The print copy has 3-D images.

Public Broadcasting Station (PBS)
Why the Towers Fell: A Companion Website to the Television Documentary.
NOVA (Science Programming On Air and Online)

Post, N.M.
"No Code Changes Recommended in World Trade Center Report"
ENR v. 248, no. 14, (2002): 14.

Post, N.M.
"Study Absolves Twin Tower Trusses, Fireproofing"
ENR v. 249, no. 19, (2002): 12-14.

The University of Sydney, Department of Civil Engineering
World Trade Center - Some Engineering Aspects
A resource site.

"WTC Engineers Credit Design in Saving Thousands of Lives"
ENR v. 247, no. 16, (2001): 12.

Please post specific links. When I google these I get a bunch of forum discussions.

Do any of these use data from the TT or are they just more "theoretical" suppositions?

 

[Christopher7]

An Engineering Perspective of the Collapse of WTC-I
Ayhan Irfanoglu and Christoph M. Hoffmann

"We estimate that a core collapse mechanism could be initiated if the tower core column temperatures were elevated to about 700^oC."

NIST confirmed column temperatures of 250^oC.

The core area was mostly elevator shafts, air ducts and bathrooms. There is no basis for the 700^oC temperatures.

 

[Christopher7]

This is gibberish:
G. P. Cherepanov
"It is established that the floors where the WTC collapses started from were located significantly lower than the floors hit by the terrorists and subjected to fire. This conclusion confirms the same former result obtained by using the simple official theory of pure progressive collapse"

 

[Christopher7]

This has nothing to do with the collapse.

Modeling pre-evacuation delay by occupants in World Trade Center Towers 1 and 2 on September 11, 2001
Abstract

On September 11, 2001, two airplanes hit World Trade Center (WTC) 1 and 2 sixteen minutes apart, which forced one of the largest evacuations from high-rise buildings in US history. Path analysis is used to analyze telephone data obtained from WTC survivors to empirically determine if the theories from community evacuation hold true for building fires. Results show that community evacuation theories do hold true for building fires; specifically in WTC 1 and 2. In general, longer pre-evacuation times were predicted by witnessing a higher number of environmental cues, being on a lower floor in the building, obtaining more information, seeking additional information, and performing a higher number of pre-evacuation actions. A deeper understanding of human behavior in fire events can be gained by using path analysis techniques, which can ultimately improve evacuation education, training, and procedures for high-rise buildings across the world as well as future evacuation prediction techniques.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Look who's talking.

BTW: What is your degree in and from what university?
What qualifies you to second guess two PhD's with 20 years experience as professors at major universities?

Does that mean you aren't qualified to second guess PhDs with 20 years of experience as professor at major universities?

Or does it just mean you can't argue with the facts stated: that The Open Chemical Physics Journal published only 46 pages in 2009, that Harrit et al consumed the majority of those pages, and that the journal hasn't published anything in 2010?

 

[R.Mackey]

Does that mean you aren't qualified to second guess PhDs with 20 years of experience as professor at major universities?

Like I said, stop arguing with the crazy folks. It's pointless. Truthers really do not know when to quit.

Case in point, I am indeed qualified to challenge scientific results from anyone, including disgraced former professors. My CV is on line somewhere if anyone cares. Matter of fact, at this very moment I'm putting the last touches on a paper -- a real journal paper, peer reviewed and accepted -- for the IEEE, as lead author.

 

[Myriad]

Please list these 20+ sources that show that such devices were close enough, with the capability, to record the collapse of WTC 7.

I did not claim there were 20+ sources. You asked how many recording devices were operating in a position to record building-destroying detonations, and I calculated a reasonable estimate based on reasonable estimates of the average ownership rate of recording devices (1 per 2 adults), the average usage rate of such devices (2.5 hours of recording per year), the radius at which a detonation sufficient to compromise structural steel would be loud enough to be apparent in such recordings (3900 feet), and the weekday daytime population density of Manhattan (56% of 3.7 million people employed in NYC spread over 22 square miles).

(3700000 * .56 / 22) * 1/2 * 2.5/(24 * 365) * pi * ((3900 / 5280)^2) = 23

That's the approximate number of recordings one would expect if such an explosion had occurred completely without warning -- that is, assuming that no one was any more likely than at any average time to have picked up a camera and started recording something.

But of course that was not the case. Because of the momentous events already going on, this estimate based on the typical number of recording devices operating at any given random moment is way conservative, probably by orders of magnitude. (Some factors might tend to push the number in the other direction, such as the large number of people who had evacuated the area by the time building 7 collapse, but keep in mind that people making recordings of events of the day -- such as for instance reporters -- would be more likely to stay.)

If you think there are any recordings of detonations capable of compromising the structural steel of a skyscraper, it's up to you to go find them.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Pardalis]

Just in case there was any remaining doubt, the Bentham Open Chemical Physics Journal is completely defunct

 

[Christopher7]

Does that mean you aren't qualified to second guess PhDs with 20 years of experience as professor at major universities?

Or does it just mean you can't argue with the facts stated: that The Open Chemical Physics Journal published only 46 pages in 2009, that Harrit et al consumed the majority of those pages, and that the journal hasn't published anything in 2010?

So what? You attack the journal because you cannot dispute the pretty pictures of the thermite chips with the iron spheres attached or the data. You can call these professionals liars but you are not qualified to wipe their ass.

This is just the tried and true "Kill the messenger, ignore the message" that deniers have run into the ground.

Until a qualified person or group publishes a rebuttal in a journal, all your hand waving and name calling is just a bunch of childish denial prattle.

Your resident "expert" slithered back into his hole rather than post his credentials, which I doubt he has. Mr. Mackey calls himself a "scientist". That's a pretty generic term. He has yet to say what his degree is in. For all we know it's in wedgie-weaving.

 

[Christopher7]

Case in point, I am indeed qualified to challenge scientific results from anyone, including disgraced former professors. My CV is on line somewhere if anyone cares.

Somewhere, over the rainbow . . . .

I really do have credentials . . . honest

Why don't you just post the URL Ryan?

Matter of fact, at this very moment I'm putting the last touches on a paper -- a real journal paper, peer reviewed and accepted -- for the IEEE, as lead author.

If it is peer reviewed and accepted, why are you messing with it?

 

[TSR]

I really do have credentials . . . honest

.
From here:
Ryan Mackey received his B.A. degree from the University of California at Santa Cruz (1993) for Mathematics and Physics, and went on to an M.S. (1994) and Eng. (1997) in Aeronautics at Caltech. He is presently a senior researcher and charter member of the Ultracomputing Technologies Research Group at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

Your turn.
.

 

[Christopher7]

.
From here:
Ryan Mackey received his B.A. degree from the University of California at Santa Cruz (1993) for Mathematics and Physics, and went on to an M.S. (1994) and Eng. (1997) in Aeronautics at Caltech. He is presently a senior researcher and charter member of the Ultracomputing Technologies Research Group at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

Your turn.
.

Thank you

 

[TSR]

Thank you

.
Took all of a minute because I kept getting distracted, had you *really* been interested. Care to retract all of your insinuations about Mackey now?

Your turn: You've made claims that therm*te is the only possible cause of the behaviours you describe.

Since all you offer in support of this is your say-so, what is your expertise / training in this area?
.

 

[TSR]

.
How's (note the spelling) about you retract all of your insinuations about Mackey now?

Your turn: You've made claims that therm*te is the only possible cause of the behaviours you describe.

Since all you offer in support of this is your say-so, what is your expertise / training in this area?

Or are you going to continue to run, leaving insults in your wake?
.

 

[Christopher7]

.
How's (note the spelling) about you retract all of your insinuations about Mackey now?

Your turn: You've made claims that therm*te is the only possible cause of the behaviours you describe.

Since all you offer in support of this is your say-so, what is your expertise / training in this area?

Or are you going to continue to run, leaving insults in your wake?
.

In case you haven't noticed, the posters here rarely put up a post that does not contain an insult so don't complain.

ETA: "You and I both know they are medically incapable of changing their minds."
"Like I said, stop arguing with the crazy folks." - Ryan Mackey
He's so polite

There is no other explanation for melted beam in the FEMA C report.
"Heating of the steel into a hot corrosive environment approaching 1,000°C (1,800°F) results in the formation of a eutectic mixture of iron, oxygen, and sulfur that liquefied the steel."

The argument that thermate burns at 4500^oF does not preclude thermate residue dripping on the beam and eroding it over a period of time. The temperature of the beam would not instantly rise to 4500^oF as the heat would be defused. This is a possibility and I have heard no other possibilities.

ETA: Thermite is the only known explanation for the iron spheres noted in the USGS and RJ Lee Group reports.
[FONT=&quot]Pg 17 [pdf pg 21][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]event, producing spherical metallic particles. Exposure of phases to high[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]heat results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Figure 21 [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]and Figure 22show a spherical iron particle resulting from the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]melting of iron (or steel)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

 

[Dave Rogers]

What qualifies you to second guess two PhD's with 20 years experience as professors at major universities?

Well, apart from anything else, there's the dissenting opinion of several hundred qualified engineers and professors at major universities whose disciplines are far more germane to building collapses than (for example) nuclear physics, which is rather at the opposite end of the scale distribution. There's probably more relevant experience on this forum than in the whole of the truth movement.

Dave