Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[marplots]

And your point...?

We have to have a point now? That is going to severely restrict my ability to post.

First it was capitalization. Then they wanted grammar and punctuation. Then spelling. Now a coherent point? I cry forum Nazis, um tyrants!

 

[jakesteele]

Dunstan;6143317](adjusted the emphasis)

Whether that is a "better" result depends on the goal, doesn't it? If you assume that the goal is abstinence, then it's unsurprising that AA would do better. But a "mere reduction in drinking" may be closer to the ideal for many people.

If I was an alcoholic, I'd look much more favorably on a program that could get me back to being a normal person who can handle a few drinks from time to time (assuming such a thing is possible, which I realize AA denies) as opposed to one that requires me to abstain forever.

Which is exactly what every alcoholic does at first. Obviously, that doesn't work for the majority of A.A. members. If it did, they wouldn't be members of A.A.

I have also seen a fair number of people with drug/alcohol problems stop using by a number of different. Christianity, psychotherapy, doing it on your own after having some kind of 'eye opening' experience that shook them to the core.

A.A. has saying, "People who don't go to meetings don't find out what happens to people who don't go to meetings." I have always played the Devil's Advocate and would say, "People who go to meetings don't find out what happens to people who don't go to meetings. Why, because they're sitting in a smoke filled room in a dark eddy of life while everybody is out there living it. Needless to say, that never went over very well.








I mean, if we were comparing the success of "sex addiction treatments," would we say that Treatment X is "better" if it has a higher rate of getting people to abstain from all sex than Treatment Y which allows for healthy sexual relationships?[/QUOTE]

 

[KodeBlue]

the only thing i'm recovering from is my catholic upbringing!

 

[jakesteele]

AA is religious.

'Spiritual' is a woo word. It often is used as cover for religion. Even when there is no apparent religious aspects to 'spiritual' thought, there are always woo aspects.

I had a therapist that I really liked, but he asserted that I was spiritual even though I wasn't religious. I assured him that I was not.

What the hell is a woo word? Please define woo. Personally, I define spirituality this way: Good spirituality begins with healthy emotionality. There's nothing wooish about that. It just means the process of growth, change, the self honesty required to do so, etc.

 

[jakesteele]

Nonsense.

'Woo' is a nearly perfect word.

Woo beliefs, people, and behavior are the problem.

And Pseudo is a perfect word. Bigoted, intolerant people with arrogantly assumptive behavior are the real problem.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Trolling the internet looking for some answers into what I believe is spirituality, I found this article. I must say it encapsulates my feelings and beliefs pretty well, and perhaps it gives a little further insight into the way some of us approach and develop our own spirituality, whilst devoid of religion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/20/AR2006062000751.html

I do not follow any particular religion, rather I consider myself to be an inquisitive agnostic. Not following a religion and having an agnostic leaning doesn't mean that I lack a sense of spirituality.

Instead of having rituals or teachings prescribed by a religious faith, I developed my own ways to get in touch with my spiritual side. I base my spirituality and beliefs on my interpretation of facts rather than faith, and I consider my quest for knowledge and my spirituality linked.

Reading the histories and teachings behind various religious faiths and having lively discussions and debates with believers and non-believers allows me to feel spiritually alive. I find spirituality in appreciating beautiful art, literature and music as well as from feeling love from family and friends. Taking long walks in the woods near my house, appreciating all the beauty around me and becoming one with nature also awakens my spiritual side.

To some people the concept of a "spiritual agnostic" may be an oxymoron, but I believe that one does not have to possess faith in a higher power or a particular religion in order to be spiritual. Spirituality is highly personal, and all people, including atheists and agnostics, can have a spiritual side. I feel fortunate to have been able to tap into my spirituality and still maintain my agnostic viewpoint.

 

[Dancing David]

I agree, it's upsetting and wrong.

I would argue it's not only spiritual, not only religious--it's monotheistic and Protestant. The emotional highs and lows (did you ever notice how much they laugh at AA meetings and then they're crying the next minute?), the praying, the endless self deprecation, repeating one's sins over and over, cognitive dissonance, powerlessness, edict to help others....all smacks of Protestantism to me.

There are secular self help options, though not as many. (Want to hear my theory about why? Because secularism doesn't preach dependence on a group as the only vehicle to recovery. Not that some people don't need or want that, but not everyone does.)

There are online secular self help groups.

The thing to remember is it's all self help, not professional treatment. I don't find it surprising that a room full of people with the same issue, with no professional training or obligation to exercise good technique and boundaries, don't help each other that much.

People do question AA being religious. All the time, in fact.

One person took it to court--now in my state judges can't compel a person to go to AA because it is forcing someone to practice religion.

Great post, protestant values and the puritan values are a mess maker of guilt and shame in the US.

I think that the other thing that is often stressed by women and others is that Bill W. and the other founders of AA were powerfull men, who were a part of the power brokers of their society. And that AA, even today is mainly a guy thing, dominated by male culture and mores.

 

[Dancing David]

I'm not disagreeing with the thrust of your post, but I can't help being reminded of this notorious bit of Scientology rhetoric:

""You could jump off a bridge or blow your brains out, it'd be stupid, but the choice is yours".

Because you seem to reference Scientology (by repudiating any similiarity), maybe this is a sly allusion.

Nah, one predates the other. AA has a huge store of little quotes and moral saysings.

My favorite, and it is supposedly a bulgarian proverb is:

"If you wish to drown, do not torture yourself with shallow water."

and while I went and blacked out the word god in many daily reader books, I also like

'Pray to god, but row to shore.'

 

[Dancing David]

That is precisely what the skull jockeys would call psychosocial health. You are starting to get it. The social interaction is a very important part of AA. It certainly isn't all "religious" as you call it. It is a many faceted diamond - don't get bogged down with one aspect, look to the whole.

Oook, pllease don't drag the already defamed psychology for this.

Here is the relapse preention model in short, it works best in people who have abuse issues but can work with people who are dependant "If they work it!" ( )

1. Take care of your self.
-create your safety plan
-nutrition
-exercise
-medical care
-employment or other day activity not associated with use
-social networks not associated with use
-self care not associated with use


2. When at risk:
-get out
-get help IE use your safety plan

The safety plan has two components
-Emergency
--things to do and resources to use when at risk
--if you use, stop right away do not continue, run like heck away

-Ongoing
--evaluate risk
--plan to avoid risk
--modify behaviors

ETA:

this can be simply modified into a harm reduction model as well, which is an intermediate step.

 

[calebprime]

Nah, one predates the other. AA has a huge store of little quotes and moral saysings.

My favorite, and it is supposedly a bulgarian proverb is:

"If you wish to drown, do not torture yourself with shallow water."

and while I went and blacked out the word god in many daily reader books, I also like

'Pray to god, but row to shore.'

That makes sense.

To the extent I had a point at all, it was that I was noticing a similarity in presenting a stark alternative.

That is probably appropriate for people with serious drinking problems.

But surely there are non-joiner types, like Guy Waterman*, Piggy, or me*, who just quit whatever our bad habits are on our own.

Not a major point.

Carry on.

*Not a poster boy for mental health, but his story sprang to mind.

*idem

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Oook, pllease don't drag the already defamed psychology for this.

Here is the relapse preention model in short, it works best in people who have abuse issues but can work with people who are dependant "If they work it!" ( )

1. Take care of your self.
-create your safety plan
-nutrition
-exercise
-medical care
-employment or other day activity not associated with use
-social networks not associated with use
-self care not associated with use


2. When at risk:
-get out
-get help IE use your safety plan

The safety plan has two components
-Emergency
--things to do and resources to use when at risk
--if you use, stop right away do not continue, run like heck away

-Ongoing
--evaluate risk
--plan to avoid risk
--modify behaviors

ETA:

this can be simply modified into a harm reduction model as well, which is an intermediate step.

I agree with all that, too. Much of which is 'taught' in 12 step fellowships. As I said, the program is multi-faceted (whether you actually use the steps or not), these facets might include:
- your model above.
- Something I like to call CRT (constant reminder therapy)
- getting honest with yourself.
- Changing old thoughts and behaviours and replacing them with healthy ones (as per your model also).
- Social interaction, development of new social networks and supports *i.e. psychosocial and/or spiritual development).
- Ego deflation, creation of healthy personal boundaries, stopping emotional investment in outcomes (i.e. expectations).
- Re/connection with your chosen religion (if one wishes).

You have described an integral part of recovery which is maintenance, while much of what you have listed encompasses that, the CRT and support networks remain invaluable and desirous for many. Clearly AA includes what you describe as "social networks not associated with use". And it is free, easily accessable and filled with people who have the same problems or have succesfully managed their way through similar/same.

In general terms, I'm not sure we aren't that far away from one another when all is said and done.

 

[Sledge]

Trolling the internet looking for some answers into what I believe is spirituality, I found this article. I must say it encapsulates my feelings and beliefs pretty well, and perhaps it gives a little further insight into the way some of us approach and develop our own spirituality, whilst devoid of religion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/20/AR2006062000751.html

But what does it MEAN? What is spirituality? What is the spiritual side to a person? Based on that article, I'd assume it was the back side. Are you saying that spirituality is crap?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

But what does it MEAN? What is spirituality? What is the spiritual side to a person? Based on that article, I'd assume it was the back side. Are you saying that spirituality is crap?

No, seems you might be though. However, I would suggest you need to return to school for some lessons in comprehension and the written word - you clearly have some difficulty in this area. If, as you say, you did read the article, you should really be able to determine what spirituality means to the writer.

I have made efforts to explain what it means to me, others too have tried.

Too bad if it doesn't fit your beliefs or understanding, but frankly - no-one cares.

It seems you too have an axe to grind: Why not tell me why, perhaps I can help.

 

[Pup]

So if a bowling league didn't place any such expectation upon its members but left that sort of thing up to the discretion of the individual instead, and did not require its members to conform to any norm, religious or otherwise, and if the primary purpose of the group was bowling rather than lengthy discussion of higher powers and whatnot, and even though its membership might include some who were religious and who perhaps were even convinced that contact with some god improved their game and talked about that while bowling, you would not consider it a religious group.

Right?

If a bowling group had twelve official steps written into the club bylaws and one of the steps talked about using a higher power to improve their skill at bowling, it wouldn't fit that definition.

Given the choice of a bowling group that had that in its bylaws, and one that didn't, I can imagine which an atheist would look first toward joining, all else being equal. That in itself shows the bias.

 

[Pup]

You are starting to get it. The social interaction is a very important part of AA. It certainly isn't all "religious" as you call it. It is a many faceted diamond - don't get bogged down with one aspect, look to the whole.

You sound like you're trying to recruit or something. In fact, it sounds just like a sales pitch or a religous person talking about their church.

I'm not interested in joining AA; I'm interested in seeing how or why people spin things the way they do and how pervasive religion is in American society even when people disingenously claim it isn't.

There seems to be a strong undercurrent of recruiting here, with overtones of "it's all voluntary, we don't care." Just from your replies to my posts, it feels more like talking to a cult recruiter than anything else.

 

[Nursefoxfire]

I'm dealing with a spouse who has alcohol issues. His first therapist (social worker) told him to go to a Beginner's AA meeting, and to "Keep An Open Mind."

He went, and was instantly uncomfortable. Not only was Jesus Christ mentioned constantly as the Savior, but the meeting ended with, "The Lord's Prayer."

He related this to the social worker, who berated him for not going to a Beginner's meeting. (Which it WAS listed as.) And then told him that, "The Lord's Prayer" is not really religious, anyway.

My husband now sees a psychologist who specializes in cognitive behavior and doesn't push AA.

Now I'm furious that MY new therapist is telling me that AA would be a good resource for my husband. "It's not religious, it's spiritual," and "Your higher power can be anything at all, the ocean, even yourself."

I'm not confrontational, and I tried to remember some of the advice I've received here about debating. I told her that I had done research on AA, that it had a 5% success rate, and that the Supreme Court had ruled that it was religious. Then I started to get emotional and told her that it was all based on a Buchmanite group designed to get people to accept Christ as the Savior, and that the Higher Power stuff was nonsense, since sure, it starts out as, "the ocean," but ends up referring to God. And the "higher power" definitely CANNOT be yourself, since it has to be some outside force. As Henry Ford said of his cars, you can have any color you want so long as it's black. Well, you can have any Higher Power you want so long as it's God.

As former Catholics, my husband and I tend to get a bit touchy when religion is sold to us. It is very difficult to get away from, "Magical Thinking," and I've been working so hard to restructure my thoughts, to think more critically, to learn about logic, and to question things. And it took a lot for me to "talk back" to my therapist about this, and I still feel guilty, like I should just accept it as good advice. Such is the mark that being a good little Catholic girl leaves on person.

I feel so angry that the majority of people don't question AA at all.

I'm very sorry that you and your husband are going through this. Struggling with alcoholism is a very tough and (sometimes) lonely road.

I haven't read all the replies here, but something came to mind: Have you considered a group called SOS? http://www.sossobriety.org/

 

[Tinyal]

You sound like you're trying to recruit or something. In fact, it sounds just like a sales pitch or a religous person talking about their church.

I'm not interested in joining AA; I'm interested in seeing how or why people spin things the way they do and how pervasive religion is in American society even when people disingenously claim it isn't.

There seems to be a strong undercurrent of recruiting here, with overtones of "it's all voluntary, we don't care." Just from your replies to my posts, it feels more like talking to a cult recruiter than anything else.

<bold mine> That's because AA as described in AA literature itself - the big book & the 12x12 (- just because a minority of the meetings don't follow this material has no effect on whether the base material itself is or isn't a dangerous cult) fits the definition of a cult exactly & precisely.

For a detailed examination of the question 'Is AA a cult religion?' see the following link - I urge everyone interested in examining this question, or anyone who knows someone currently in AA to take a few mins to read this link , and I fully expect AA supporters to ignore it - just as I did years ago.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

 

[Rasmus]

What the hell is a woo word? Please define woo. Personally, I define spirituality this way: Good spirituality begins with healthy emotionality. There's nothing wooish about that. It just means the process of growth, change, the self honesty required to do so, etc.

Emphasis mine.

That is not a definition of spirituality at all. It's not a defintion of anything else, either.

You start out by telling us how "good" spirituality begins.

so, there is bad spirituality, and it might begin in some other way. Also, regardless of how it began, good spirituality in progress, as it were. doesn't need to still display those signs anymore.

And the "etc." is a dead giveaway: You have no clue. You do not define spirituality at all, you just throw a few buzzword around that you think ought to relate to it. Do you really thing that "the process of growth" tells me anything at all?

A definition of "spirituality" would allow me to look at something and find out if that something is or is not spiritual.

 

[Nursefoxfire]

I'm REALLY surprised no one has brought up the Penn & Teller BS episode on 12-step programs. Not that P&T should be used as cold hard data, of course, but the episode IS interesting and opened my eyes to other possibilities besides AA.

Part 1:


Part 2:


Part 3:

 

[EvilSmurf]

The court orders you to go. AA does not make you stay. I am not going to be the AA apologist for this thread but a couple of things-
3) AA literature was written in the 1930's, is religious and dogmatic. The Agnostics made a big enough stink to get their own chapter, #4 The Chapter to the Agnostics, which I just recently reread after another thread here at the JREF and I have to admit that that crap would not work for me today but here I am, 14 years later and the strongest thing that I have put in my body since I got sober is an aspirin.

I just read chapter 4 myself. It seems to contend an alcoholic can NOT stay sober while still being an Atheist or Agnostic. A Direct quote "To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not easy alternatives to face." Also, notice the capitilisation of God all throughout Chapter 4.